MTM - Interview with Joe Wolverton..Nullification

What if the Constitution’s simplest safeguard has been hiding in plain sight? We dive into nullification as a clean, contract-based concept: the states, as principals, created a federal agent with enumerated powers, and when that agent wanders outside the four corners of the contract, the states can treat those actions as void. No saber-rattling, no chaos—just the same logic courts use every day when parties breach an agreement.

With constitutional lawyer Joe Wolverton, we unpack James Madison’s playbook from Federalist 45 and 46, where interposition and noncooperation form a peaceful path to restore balance. We ground the theory with modern examples—state-level marijuana markets, raw milk sales, and selective firearms enforcement—that show the Tenth Amendment already works when states simply refuse to lend resources to federal overreach. The myth of troops marching evaporates when you look at the map: these states remain firmly in the Union, and life goes on.

We also confront the money problem. Federal grants come with strings that tug policy far from home. Saying no takes fiscal backbone and voters who reward principle over subsidies. But there’s a payoff: predictable liberty draws builders, families, and entrepreneurs. When a state cuts red tape and honors constitutional limits, commerce expands, communities strengthen, and economies rise on organic growth rather than federal drip feeds.

If you want clear steps, you’ll find them here: understand the Tenth Amendment as a tool, push for state laws of noncooperation, read Federalist 45 and 46, and support candidates who will treat the Constitution as a binding compact. No new amendment required—just the will to follow the one we already have. If this conversation sharpened your thinking, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review with the one federal policy you think your state should stop enforcing first.

Transcript

Welcome And Series Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:04

To more than medicine. Where Jesus is more than enough for the guilt to plague our culture and hosted by author and physician, Dr. Robert Jackson. And his wife Carlotta and Daughter Annabella. So that's enough because the doctor is dead.

Defining Nullification Through Contracts

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Welcome to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, Dr. Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the Country Doctor's Rusty Dusty Scrapbook. Well, once again today, I'm pleased to have Joe Wolverton, a constitutional lawyer, online with me all the way from uh Tennessee. And uh Joe, I'm delighted to have you back again once again this week. I'm delighted to be back with you, Doctor. All right, well, this is I think number four in our series. Is that right, Joe? I think that's right. I think this is the fourth one, for sure. So now today our topic is gonna be nullification. And I know that every time you talk about that, folks get all drawn up in a knot because they immediately think about the Civil War, and they think that if you if you nullify uh something that the federal government does, that they're gonna immediately send troops to your state and there's gonna be an all-out, knockdown, drag out war, which is patently false, but that's what people think. So I I just want to ask you to help us understand how to make states states again, how to make the states great again, and and what exactly does nullification mean and and how does that fit into the Constitution? So I'm gonna turn it over to you, and I want you to educate me and my listeners. And if you have some resources that you want to recommend, I want you to do that as well.

Courtroom Logic And Founding Intent

Madison, Interposition, And Federalist 46

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Okay. Well, nullification, simply put, it's a it's a you know, an ancient principle of the law of contracts. And basically what it says is when there's a contract and one body creates another body and gives that body certain duties and obligations that the second body who's known so the the body that creates it is known as the principal, and the body that is created by the principal is known as the agent. All right. So when the principal lays out in a contract the duties and powers of the agent, the agent is obliged to stay within what we call in the law the four corners of that contract. Meaning, imagine a piece of paper and you have a contract written on that piece of paper, and the piece of paper has four corners, that that agent is obliged to stay within the four corners of that piece of paper, that contract. If he does something outside of that contract, of his contractual authority, the principal, the guy that formed it in the first place, he is allowed to nullify or consider as null, void, and of no legal effect that act that the agent took outside of its authority. That's as simple as that. Every founding father understood that. Every English and American lawyer since about the year 900 has understood that. Nullification is simply that when a body that creates an agent, when a principal creates an agent, that agent must stay within the boundaries of its contractual authority. If it acts outside it, the principal may nullify or refuse to acknowledge the act of the principal, the act of the agent that went beyond its contractual authority. Now, in the case of the Constitution, it is irrefutable to anyone who studies history that it were the states. The states came together and formed the federal government in Philadelphia in 1787. And in that meeting, that all the whole across the whole summer from May to September, those delegates of the states created an agent. In fact, you read the Federalist papers, the Anti-Federalist papers, they referred to the Constitution as a contract or a compact, which is just an ancient word for contract, right? They recognized that the states were coming together to write up a contract, creating an agent, in this case the federal government, and that agent, they were going to list in the four corners of that document all the powers that belong to that agent. Simple as that, Doc. Simple as that. I tell you, people that argue against nullification have obviously never been in a courtroom because I spent years in the courtroom, and every day nullification is practiced. Every day. Now they don't call it nullification because nobody cares. You just want to get your case heard. But when it happens that you hire somebody to do a job for you, that person does not do the job as y'all agreed to in a contract, and you decide you do not want to ratify or accept the job that that person did that didn't conform to the contract. A hundred times out of a hundred, the judge is going to find in your favor if you had a pre-existing contract. A hundred times out of a hundred. Yep. And he will say, sir, why did you not abide by the terms of the contract? Well, and he'll come up with some excuse. Well, the judge will say, That's fine, but you had a contract, you knew what the terms were, you violated the terms of the contract. I'm sorry, but I find for the other party. Every day in every courtroom across this country, nullification is practiced. Now, we need to recognize that that same principle applies to the Constitution, and anybody who reads, you know, everybody docking, I know you've seen it as well as I have. You go to give speeches, you go to give presentations, everybody claims to have read the fellows papers. Everybody claims to have read them. But nobody apparently has because when you're explaining, hey, this is uh, you know, they call it a contract in the very fairless paper. Oh, I didn't know that. Well, yes, they do. And so nullification, you can call what you want. Madison called it interposition, right? Same thing, different word. I mean the states, as the principles, have the right, and Madison said not only do they have the right, they are duty bound, Madison said. Yep. Whenever the federal government acts outside the scope of its contractual constitutional authority, Madison wrote in the Virginia Resolution, Madison wrote, states have a right and are duty bound to interpose, stand between, it's Latin for stand between, to stand between, to interpose for the arresting, the stopping of the evil of federal overreach. Now he called it evil when the federal government acts outside the scope of its constitutional authority, right? That's Madison's own words. So these states, we must tip the scale back in favor of the states. And what we need, and Madison spelled this out in Federalist 46, and I'll when we get to the end, I'll tell you about how to learn more about that. But Madison spelled it out in Federalist 46 that what we need are states that stand up and refuse to cooperate with unconstitutional acts of the federal government. Now, Doc, tell me, do you know how much stuff we would get rid of overnight if the states would simply assume their constitutional authority?

SPEAKER_03 8:12

Yeah, my head is spinning right now, just thinking of all the things that would need to be nullified if the states would stand up for their part of the part of part of the contract.

The Tenth Amendment In Practice Today

SPEAKER_02 8:22

That's all they need to do. And that's all they need to do. Now, and what strains my mind about the Convention of States people is they completely ignore the 10th Amendment. They act like the 10th, they talk about how we need amendments to for term limits and amendments for a balanced budget. They love amendments, but they hate the amendment that's already there called the 10th Amendment. And why do they hate it? Because it pokes a giant hole in their ship that they're sailing. Because they're sitting out there peddling this snake oil while there's a proven cure already on the market. And the proven, tested cure is the 10th Amendment. And how do I know that it's proven and tested? Because it's working right now, all across the fruited plain. Right? We have got, I lived in Arizona, and right next to the Circle K, you could go in and buy marijuana. Just like you're buying a soda at Circle K. You could go in and buy. I lived in Idaho. You can go in the grocery store and buy raw milk, just the same as you can buy 2%. Right? You can go to Colorado. I don't know if you've ever driven through Colorado. Every other store is a weed shop. Yep. Right? Yep. You can go states that sell large capacity mags in violation of federal regulation. So I know nullification works, and I know the Tenth Amendment is a proven cure because it's working right now. Arizona's still in the Union. Idaho's still in the Union. Colorado's still in the Union. There are no federal troops marching on any of those states. And those laws they made nullifying, interposing, you know, arresting the progress of the evil, as Madison said. That hasn't caused troops to march on those states. And they're still in the union and everybody's happy and nobody is bothered, right? Nobody cares. If you don't want to live in a state where they sell high capacity manages, well, move to a different state. If you don't want to live in a state where they sell weed, either try to get the laws overturned or move to a different state. Simple as that. Right? So they they want amendments for everything, but for some reason they ignore, now I say for some reason. We both know why they ignore the 10th Amendment, because then they don't have any snake oils.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Then you've got that cure that's sitting there that every you can get it over the counter.

unknown 10:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

Right? Exactly. And it's free. And they know that that ruins all of their arguments because the 10th Amendment already does what they want to write new amendments to do. Well, now if you would see anything the federal government does that's unconstitutional. Because what do they say, Doc? They say, we got to reign in Washington. Yes, we do. And the way we do that is by the states exercising their constitutional authority under the Tenth Amendment. That's how you do it right there. Simple as that, Doc. Well, now simple as that. Overnight we could have a renaissance in this country.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

If you were king for a day, what would be the first thing that you would nullify if you were the king of South Carolina?

Money, Grants, And State Compliance

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Oh, well, I don't know. I would nullify all uh gun regulations, every single one of them. Oh, yeah. I'd let you buy guns and a vending machine. Uh every what every unconstitutional uh restriction on firearms, every restriction on homeschooling, every restriction, every restriction on the freedom of speech, every restriction, restriction on the freedom of religion. I would go through with a red pen and just get rid of all of them. And that and I don't have to be king for a day, because the states are kings. That's right. They are. And all they have to do is exercise that authority. And they just refuse to do it. And they refuse to do it because, and it's again, simple reason money talks. And the federal government's like, you can play ball with us, you know, and enforce our unconstitutional regulations, and we'll send you a little money. We'll open up some grants to you. Well, yeah. And then states are like, well, we're strapped because why? Because they have all these unconstitutional welfare programs and and uh all kinds of stuff that they, you know, want to do to keep people voting for the right people. And so the states are strapped economically, and along comes Washington and says, hey, if you enforce this high capacity uh mag ban, we'll we'll give you this uh grant that we've got for people who play ball with us. And of course the states are like, hey, we can't turn down that money. I lived through it. I taught in I taught in Arizona at a school that was a charter school, and I taught there because they didn't accept any federal money. Well, boy, there at the end, when I quit, and I quit because of this, they decided they weren't gonna turn down this huge federal pot of money that the feds were offering if they would submit their curriculum to the federal government's oversight. And they were gonna get paid something like$8,000 for every student by the federal government. And the guy who ran that school said, Yep, we're taking it. That's a lot of money, and he's like, I'm taking it. And I said, Well, you're taking that and you're leaving me because I'm gone. I am not taking any federal money at all, ever. And so it just works, Doc. The states, everybody who's listening to you, the state of South Carolina, I mean, and South Carolina, of course, more than any other state because of its history, is is perfectly poised to uh posed to sit out there and say, do you know what we're not gonna cooperate with this unconstitutional act, we're not gonna do it. And instantly, Doc, you'd have that state become a beacon for people who love liberty, for people who love a free market. Yep. They would flock to South Carolina, and what would be the effect? The effect would be an economy that just lifts itself up. Yep. Right? Exactly. Because organically, those freedom-loving people, they're gonna go where the laws allow them to live freely. Yep. And if that state, South Carolina, I you know, my wife knows as long as it's a state south of the Mason Dixon, I'm moving to that state the minute we have a state that blanket nullifies every unconstitutional act of the federal government. We're moving to that state. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I want that. I want to have the liberty that our founding fathers gave us. And unfortunately, we've been trading it away for that filthy lucre that comes out of DC.

unknown 15:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Freedom loving people would move to South Carolina in droves.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

In droves. I mean, because there's a lot to there's a lot going for you just be in South Carolina, you know. You've got such uh diversity of your, you know, the uh the climate and the ecology and everything. You've got such good people, you're in the south, you got good food, you got good people, and you know, those freedom-loving people would flock to South Carolina or flock to any state that decided to just live. We're not talking about seceding. No, no, we're not talking about that. We're talking about just enforcing the Constitution. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

You're just talking about throwing off the federal chains.

What To Nullify First

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Put the federal beast back inside its constitutional case. That's right. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 16:04

And nullification does that. What's that? And nullification does that.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Nullification does that. And I hate that people have it tied up with the so-called Civil War. Don't don't worry about that. You know, first of all, uh nullification, even nullification at the time around the Civil War shows that nullification works. Because when South Carolina refused to cooperate with the tariff, why they they reduce the tariff. Yep. And so it shows that even the nullification crisis shows that nullification works. Yep, that's right. Right? They reduced the tariff because of South Carolina's hardline stance on it.

unknown 16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Right? Exactly. You know, cooler heads prevailed and said, No, we're gonna reduce the tariff. There you go. That's what we're talking about. And so you would you would see that, and I don't I don't know how what it's gonna take to convince the people of these states to elect people to state legislature and to the governor's mansion. Elect people that are committed to follow the Constitution. We don't need it fixed, we need it followed. We don't need another amendment to take away power from the federal government. We have the Tenth Amendment that reserves to the states all the power they need to refuse to enforce or even participate with or even acknowledge as existing, right? That's what no means. It doesn't exist. Refuse to even acknowledge it exists any act of the federal government that goes beyond the limits of its constitutional authority. Simple as that. And if we can just get people to understand that and get people, if you can't find somebody to run for office, well then I guess you ought to run for office. Because we have got to fill these states with men and women, state legislators who understand the the immensity of state authority under the Constitution. And of course COS hates it because it does away with their whole, it tears their little playhouse down.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

Sure does.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Right?

SPEAKER_03 18:22

Sure does.

Economic Migration Toward Liberty

Civil War Myths And The Tariff Crisis

SPEAKER_02 18:22

They get and they don't get a return on their investment, and they're you know, they're running in the red with their you know, billionaire oil investor, they're running in the red because they and they just lost in in Idaho and they're losing all over the place where we fight them, they lose. And they know that because if their if their message had been a good one, I think it would have taken hold over the past 20 years if they've 25 years they've been trying. And it hasn't taken hold because once people hear that we don't need another amendment, we have the 10th Amendment, it already exists, it already works, because I like the examples I told you of Colorado and Arizona and Idaho and Kansas and Missouri, all these places, right? That's right. I can I can drive over here to to Missouri and buy marijuana if I were so inclined. Right? Yeah, there ain't no troops in Missouri, there are no federal you know, threat of of you know doing anything to Missouri. Nobody cares, Doc. And so we know it works. We just have to have enough people in enough states who understand it. And so I recommend to y'all, all of your listeners, to read Federalists 45 and 46, and in those two, in 46 especially, James Madison lays out his plan for how if if the states ever were to be crazy enough to allow the federal government to get out of control, that if the states ever, if that ever happened, he provides in Federalist 46 the plan of how to reign, how to put the federal beast back inside its constitutional page. And I wrote a book called What Degree of Madness, and you can get that on Amazon or you can get it at Western Islands Publishing.com, and it's called What Degree of Madness, and therein I explain in modern language and easy understand language, and I bullet point it and you know, one, two, three, four, all that stuff. I take Federalist 46 and make it easy for everybody to understand, and it gives the solution. Everybody I was talking about, well, everybody talks about the problems and no one talks about solutions. Well, in Federalist 46 and in my book, What Degree of Madness, there you find not just the problems, but you find solutions that James Madison provided for how to rein in the federal government. We don't need a new amendment, we need the 10th Amendment to be treated like it's part of the Constitution because it is, and we need these states to stand up and assert their constitutional authority, which is substantial, because to take it right back to the beginning, it is the states that created the federal government and wrote a contract wherein the powers of the federal government, the agent, those powers are listed, enumerated in that contract that we call the Constitution of the United States. Simple as that, Doc. Simple as that.

SPEAKER_03 21:39

All right, well, we run out of time, Joe. I appreciate it. This is amazing information, and I guarantee you there's some folks out there listening that have no clue about anything you're telling us today.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Well, I hope they go out and read Fellows 46, go out and get my book, What Degree of Madness, and you'll see that there are things we can do. Things you can do today to change things whatever state you're living in, you can do something today to change things.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

All right. Are you listening to More Than Medicine? I'm your host, Dr. Robert Jackson. My well-educated and well-spoken guest is Joe Wolverton, constitutional lawyer. And Joe, I want you to know I really appreciate you being with me for these last four weeks. It's been very, very informative, and I hope you'll come back and uh do this with us again sometime. Would that be okay?

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Anytime. I'm at your disposal, Doc.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

All right. Thank you, sir. You're mighty kind. All right. That's it for this week. Till next week. Remember, your doctor loves you. Jesus loves you. And until next week, I pray the Lord will bless you. Real good.

Electing State Leaders Who Will Act

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine. For more information about the Jackson Family Ministry or to schedule a speaking engagement, go to their Facebook page, Instagram, or webpage at JacksonFamily Ministry.com. Also, don't forget to check out Dr. Jackson's books that are available on Amazon. His third book, Turkey Tales and Bible Truths, and his father's biography on Laughter Silvered Wings. The story of a country doctor, a family man, a patriot, and a political activist. This podcast is produced by Bob Sloan Audio Productions.