More Than Medicine
More Than Medicine
MTM - Interview with Dr. Matt Clark
Hard questions sharpen our compassion and our logic. We sit down with Dr. Matt Clark—physician, pastor, and executive director of Personhood South Carolina—to trace personhood from Genesis to the Constitution and ask what equal protection really demands before and after birth. Drawing on scripture, state law, and firsthand stories from clinic sidewalks, we examine why carving out abortion as an exception clashes with both moral clarity and legal consistency, and how misdirected compassion can actually deepen harm for women and children.
We unpack the core claim that all humans bear the image of God and explore how the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, along with South Carolina’s unborn victims statute, already recognize the life at stake. From there, we tackle the volatile idea that mothers should always be treated as victims, contrasting real cases of coercion—where defenses and conditional immunity apply—with candid admissions of intent that juries are equipped to weigh. We talk frankly about conscience, guilt, and the long tail of post-abortion pain the literature has documented, arguing that truth in love offers a path to mercy that denial cannot.
Justice and mercy meet in distinct spheres: the state’s ministry of justice restrains evil, while the church’s ministry of grace proclaims forgiveness through Christ. We clarify current bills, dispel the fear of automatic death penalties, and point to real-world sentencing patterns that leave room for mercy. Finally, we share details on the upcoming Statehouse press conference and hearing, and how long-term support—prayer, district teams, and monthly gifts—helps build a culture where both mother and child are protected.
If this conversation challenged or encouraged you, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review to help others find the show. Then tell us: how should equal protection shape our laws and our compassion?
https://www.jacksonfamilyministry.com
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Welcome to More Than Medicine, where Jesus is more than enough for the ills that plague our culture and our country. Hosted by author and physician Dr. Robert Jackson and his wife Carlotta and daughter Hannah Miller. So listen up because the doctor is in.
SPEAKER_03:Welcome to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, Dr. Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the country doctor's rusty dusty scrapbook. Well, I'm delighted today to have my good friend, Dr. Matt Clark, online with me. Dr. Clark, welcome to More Than Medicine.
SPEAKER_02:Well, Robert, brother, it's good to be with you again. Always enjoy uh talking with you. These are such important conversations. It's really great to be with you.
SPEAKER_03:Well, tell my listening audience a little bit about who you are and what you do and that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_02:Sure. I'm a husband, uh, been married for 30 years, over 30 years. I've got 11 kids and uh five living grandchildren, and I'm a doctor and a pastor and the executive director for Personhood South Carolina, and um just really thankful uh for all the blessings God's given to me in Christ my Savior.
SPEAKER_03:Amen. Amen. Amen. All right. Well, the reason I invited you on today is I got five questions I want to ask you. And in the next 25 minutes, I want us to answer all of those questions. So the first one is this uh Dr. Clark, describe what we mean by personhood both biblically and constitutionally.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's a great question. Uh the personhood movement is based on scriptures. Personhood South Carolina is a Christian organization, and really I hope to be speaking to your Christian listeners who believe the Bible is the word of God, and we're seeking to get our answers from the scriptures. Uh, we are made by God, he's our creator, and we're made in his image. We're told in Genesis 1, uh God made us in his image, and that means we are unique, we are the most precious part of his creation. Uh, God didn't say that everything was very good until after he made mankind. And so what this means is that God requires for us to treasure, to protect one another. We are to treat other human beings as the most valuable part of creation with great, great dignity. And so after the flood, God said, Anybody who sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed. And again, right there at that spot after the flood, the Lord returns to this idea of being made in his image. The reason for this protection and this punishment is that we are made in the image of God. And so God requires us to respect the dignity of one another by providing protection and punishment in the case of murder. Now, our Constitution took these ideas and encoded them. Fifth Amendment, no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or process without due process of law. And then after the war between the states, the 14th Amendment, no state shall deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. And the South Carolina Constitution says no person shall be denied the equal protection of the laws. And Robert, our code, I don't know if you knew this or not, section 16-3 says basically, if someone commits a violent crime in our state and it kills or injures an unborn child, that counts as a separate crime punished as if the same harm had been done to the mother, even if the attacker didn't know she was pregnant. I don't know why we make an exception and punish abortionists so lightly. They only get up to two years or$10,000 if they break the heartbeat law and kill a baby after a heartbeat is uh verified. And of course, the mother, if she's involved in murdering her own child, is not punished at all. She has blanket immunity. So I think that gives us a good understanding, hopefully, of personhood uh from a biblical and constitutional perspective, and even from our state law and and why it's such nonsense what we're seeing in our laws right now.
SPEAKER_03:Excellent. All right, that's a good and succinct answer. All right, my second question. What it what is meant by equal rights and equal justice? We're hearing those two terms spoken about frequently these days. What exactly does that mean?
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's the the phrase really is an excellent description. The word equal is the key idea, and that is that all persons have the exact same legal rights and protections before and after being born. So it's not like you become more valuable or more treasured at some point in your development. And and therefore, every person involved in the murder of any person must face the same legal jeopardy no matter whether the person is born or pre-born, and no matter who the perpetrator is. In other words, it should be criminal homicide for everyone who murders anyone.
SPEAKER_03:That's right. I agree. Well said. Well said. All right. Well, now here's the thing that bugs me. The prevailing opinion right now, Dr. Clark, is that the mothers who participate in an abortion are innocent victims and should not bear any criminal penalties. How how do you respond to that?
SPEAKER_02:Well, first of all, it's um it's not accurate and it's um misdirecting the appropriate compassion that we all will feel for a woman who is considering having an abortion. The plight that she's in certainly uh deserves to um gain our attention, Robert. But this claim that all women are thus victims is is just contrary to reality. It it's just it's irrational. And I I I'll just say this, Robert. I invite anybody who really says this, I would ask them, have they stood outside of an abortion mill and watched these women go in while Christians stand there and kindly plead with them not to go in and seeing the responses of these mothers. Uh I think if you could come stand there, you would say there's no way that we should just grant blanket immunity to every single woman. It's just irrational. And I'll tell you, if they want to come stand outside the abortion mill with me, you know, just reach out and I'll be glad to do it. Because these women I've seen with my own eyes, and there's multiple testimonies from people who've been outside abortion mills way more than me, that these women routinely, knowingly, willingly, according to their own words, are killing a living human being. So it's just irrational to grant blanket unconditional immunity in every case ahead of time. Uh now look, pregnant women who are coerced or who are under duress, they have a defense against prosecution with the the good laws that have been put forth in our state. Uh, and conditional immunity is offered for their testimony in cooperation with the prosecution. So we need to be wiser. We need to understand we have a legal system in place that can judge each case. There'll be a jury of her peers to look at it if it does go to trial. And even if she is convicted, the sentencing phase offers the opportunity for much mercy. So we just have to live in reality, understand that women are sinners too, pregnant women can be murderers, and we can't just offer a blanket immunity on the front end, Robert.
SPEAKER_03:You're right, you're right. I mean, I was a family, I am a family doctor, and I have counseled with probably hundreds of women who were considering abortion, remonstrating with them and begging them not to pursue an abortion. And I've had women tell me point blank, Dr. Jackson, I know what I'm doing, and I intend to get an abortion, and I plan to kill my baby, and use those exact words and and just put a dagger in my heart to hear them say those words. I plan to kill my baby and there's nothing you can do about it. And and you know, to think that that woman is a victim is foolishness. She's not a victim, she's a cold-blooded murderer, and she plans to murder her unborn child. And you know, to to to give immunity, blanket immunity to a woman who's uh planning to kill her unborn child, regardless of anybody's uh begging or pleading, and regardless of the circumstances of her life, uh is foolishness. She's not she's not a victim. She's a cold and calculating murderer of her child. And I've met many of them. I've met many of them, Dr. Clark.
SPEAKER_02:Well, Robert, you know, we just again we mentioned Susan Smith before, and I think if people would just stop and think about it and say, why do Susan Smith's children deserve more dignity uh than children who've yet to pass outside the womb?
SPEAKER_03:That's right. That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_02:Why does a mother get to kill her own child inside her womb and have faced no penalty, but Susan Smith is still in jail?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, exactly right. That's an excellent question, and people need to ponder that. It's a great question. All right, well, let me ask you this. Why do you think this is such an emotional issue? This whole idea of attaching criminal penalties not just to the abortion doctor, but to the woman who is intent on killing her unborn child. Why is that an emotional issue? And why do people not respond logically or biblically to that issue?
SPEAKER_02:Well, brother, I I think there's an awareness that we all have deep inside how hard it is for a pregnant woman to carry that child and give birth to that child if she didn't want to be pregnant or if she doesn't want to raise that child. Um, and they just don't want to submit to way to the way God made reality. Uh they want to try to escape from it. And and I I think that's like an underlying thing that's going on. But on top of that, brother, is just decades and decades of unbiblical teaching from South Carolina citizens for life and the national right to life.
SPEAKER_03:And the local church, not just the church.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and it's it's seeped into the church. That same yeah, that same leaven has uh seeped into the local church, and uh pastors won't touch it and tell the truth about it. Um and really it's it's so um uh confusing because you know that misplaced compassion is just so hard to help people with, Robert. Um I think of the scripture in Romans that says uh that there's a lot of people that have a zeal for God, uh, Romans 10, uh, but not according to knowledge. Yeah. Right? And so there's all this zeal, this compassion for these pregnant women that's good, much of it's good, but it's not according to knowledge. What should we do with this compassion, with these emotions that are meant to move us? Yeah. Because right now they're misdirected, they don't have the proper vector. There's a lot of force, but not the right direction.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because, you know, if you think about it, if we tell women that they have done something less than murder, we're minimizing their sin. And the scriptures tell us clearly that to cover sin, you will not uh prosper. Yeah, but those who confess and forsake them shall have mercy. And how can you confess something if you don't believe you've done it?
SPEAKER_03:That's right. Right?
SPEAKER_02:And so these women, when we lie to them like this, they walk around not understanding why they still feel guilty.
SPEAKER_03:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:Why they still are filled up with guilt. And the literature is crystal clear that women who participate in killing their own children have horrible, horrible problems with their soul, with their thinking, with their emotions, uh, with uh addictive behaviors, with violent acts upon them, or um just it's horrible what women go through. That's right. So we lie to them if we don't tell them the truth.
SPEAKER_03:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:Um so there's a lot of bad things about that false compassion that we could talk about if you want to. I got a list of things if you want to hear some more bad things about that.
SPEAKER_03:Well, you know, I uh my challenge at uh at the Crisis Pregnancy Center that I helped to form was that we would tr speak the truth in love. Ephesians 4. Speak the truth in love. And it and if we tell the truth without loving people, then it comes across as condemnation. But if we love people without telling the truth, it's compromise. You have to balance the two. Now I and I know that only Jesus did that perfectly, and that all of us as as sinners, the the it's a delicate balancing act for us to to to to balance the two truth and love perfectly, and none of us does it perfectly, but nevertheless we're called to speak the truth in love. And when we deal with women who are intent on aborting their children, we cannot tell them a half truth. We have to tell them the truth that killing their unborn child is a murderous act. And and it does deserve the same penalty as an abortion doctor. If the abortion doctor is a murderer and he deserves criminal penalties, then unfortunately the woman who is an accomplice, she deserves the same penalty as well.
SPEAKER_02:For sure. And this this misdirected compassion, if you think about it, it's going to embolden uh sin, not only for the culture in general, but for the the very woman who has already had an abortion.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:We know that if you don't, uh if Ecclesiastes tells us because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, uh, therefore the hearts of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. That's right. So what we're actually doing for these women is we're actually encouraging them into more sin in the future. That's right. If they don't really understand what they've done and they haven't faced the appropriate consequences that God lays out in His Word.
SPEAKER_03:If you talk to women if you talk to the con the abortion clinic counselors, the women who work there, they will tell you that they have clientele that comes there repeatedly for multiple abortions. And why would they do that? It's because there's no consequences. Well, I won't say there's no consequences because they have emotional consequences. But but one of the consequences is a seared conscience. And their conscience becomes seared as with a hot iron, and they become calloused in their conscience. But for the average woman, the the the con the consequence is is regret and remorse and heartache and sorrow. And so, you know, there's got to be consequences, and and I promise you, my brother, if there are legal consequences in South Carolina, we would only have to prosecute one doctor and one woman and those abortion clinics would be closed forever. That if it has the news that South Carolina prosecuted one woman and one doctor, it would close the abortion clinics forever in South Carolina.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. And you know, if we think about this um false compassion a little bit more, if you think about it, it's contrary to the gospel because this kind of false or misdirected compassion ignores justice. But God, our Father, did not ignore justice in order to bring us mercy. His justice was satisfied upon our Savior, Jesus Christ, his only begotten beloved Son, in order for us to be freed from that, so that we could find mercy. So it's contrary to the gospel to throw aside justice. And it's also contrary to the way God made the world, because in Romans 13 we're told that the state has the ministry of justice. The state is not given the ministry of grace. The state is given the ministry of justice to be an avenger against evildoers, and that's evildoers according to God's word, like we've already discussed. And so we've got to remember the church is given the ministry of grace.
SPEAKER_03:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:The church is given the ministry of the gospel. The church helps these women understand that they can be forgiven no matter what they've done through the blood of Jesus Christ. But the state stands with the sword and says that I am here to punish evildoers unswervingly. Now, at the same time, though, we know, Robert, and here's the thing people got to remember, we've got a jury system where uh peers will be looking at the case if the woman does end up in trial, and mercy is available after sentencing if the woman is convicted. And as I said, you know, there's conditional um immunity available if the woman uh agrees to testify. And so I think all these pieces of truth, if if people be willing to sit down and look at them, they'd say, wait a minute, my compassion, I know how to direct my compassion now for these women because it's truly compassionate to tell these women the truth because the law is a tutor, right? And to tell the whole world the truth, and that's the most compassionate thing that we can do for these women.
SPEAKER_03:All right. Now there's there's there's a misconception out there right now that these the two bills that are in the uh being proposed currently, that these bills require the death penalty for women who are uh accomplices to murder of abortion. Is that true?
SPEAKER_02:No, um it's not true, Robert. Um the bill S323 that was debated already and voted down, the Unborn Child Protection Act, its maximum penalty was up to 30 years in prison. So there was not even a minimum prison sentence. And so there was no chance for the death penalty in that particular bill. Uh now the Prenatal Equal Protection Act, which has been introduced in the House and will be introduced in the Senate, now that that bill does leave the possibility for being uh prosecuted for murder and facing the death penalty in theory. Um but when we look at the history of South Carolina and the way laws are enforced, I think it's extremely unlikely uh that a woman would ever face uh the death penalty. Um that's that's my opinion, um, but I think that makes sense, especially when we look at what we did with Susan Smith. She didn't get the death penalty.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, if Susan Smith didn't get the death penalty, I it's li unlikely that any woman who participates in an abortion would ever get death penalty in this South South Carolina uh the jury system in this state. All right, well let me ask you another question then. Um th there's gonna be a uh uh an event in Columbia next uh Tuesday or Wednesday. What's that all about?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, big news. So uh leave right. Was elected to the Senate in a special election, and he is a equal protection champion and uh person in South Carolina is supporting uh the prenatal equal protection act, and there's gonna be a press conference there put on by Equal Protection South Carolina, and a leading pro-life uh figure is gonna, a national pro-life figure is gonna be there to speak at that uh rally, and so we're asking folks to be there, especially pastors uh to be there at 10 a.m. And uh the event uh I saw two different times. I saw 10:30, I saw 11 a.m. I think it's 11, um, but pastors to be there um at 10. And it's gonna be to show our support for this bill that would end abortion in South Carolina and provide equal protection for our pre-born neighbors.
SPEAKER_03:I gotcha, I gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:And then there's been it's been granted a hearing the following day in the House. The bill that was introduced by Rob Harris has a hearing in the House the very next day, and so if people can get there for that as well, um, you know, there's opportunities to communicate with those elected officials and ask them to vote in favor of the bill.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha, gotcha. All right, now if my listeners want to assist Personhood South Carolina in its efforts to uh promote pro-life legislation, how can they jump on board?
SPEAKER_02:Well, brother, the first thing I would say is, you know, been at this for 10 years now, and I think what we need the most is for folks to really sit down and pray and consider long-term commitment to personhood, becoming a partner with what we're doing for the long haul until we see this blight eliminated from our state and justice established in our state, justice for all. And that long-term connection can come in many different forms, Robert, but that's what we're hoping people will consider, whether it's through praying, uh connecting with our district teams that are forming throughout the state. Uh donations are really important. Umly donations, if they go to our website, they can uh look at their budget and say, okay, how much can I spend this month to help stop the murder of my neighbors in the womb and provide them justice? What can I spend this month for my budget and just lock it into their budget for the long haul? Um if there's folks who, you know, have got a chunk of money available for one-time gifts, absolutely we'll put that to work as well, spreading the word, working in legislative efforts, working in the state house, uh, working in election efforts and working to build our network and get the word out around the state. Uh so they can go to our website and they can connect at personhood.sc.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, good enough. And keep praying for our board, keep praying for Dr. Clark and myself and uh those who are on the board, and uh pray for the legislation that's coming up. Uh that God will show favor, that he will stir the heart of our legislators to do what is good and right. And Dr. Clark, I thank you for your time, I thank you for your expertise, I thank you for your knowledge on these issues, and I pray the Lord will continue to bless you and your family, and uh that he will show favor not just to to personhood but specifically to the uh pro-life efforts here in South Carolina. Thank you for your time.
SPEAKER_02:Uh what a joy, brother. It's it's really um a wonderful thing for me to be involved in this effort with you.
SPEAKER_03:All right, sir. You listen to more than medicine. My guest today is Dr. Matt Clark. He's uh allergist, he's a pastor down in Is it North Augusta or Edgefield?
SPEAKER_02:The yeah, I'm a pastor in Edgefield and I'm a doctor in North Augusta.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha. All right, brother. Thank you for your time. All right. Much love. We'll be back again next week. Until then, remember that Jesus loves you and your doctor loves you, and may the Lord bless you real good.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine. For more information about the Jackson Family Ministry or to schedule a speaking engagement, go to their Facebook page, Instagram, or webpage at JacksonFamily Ministry.com. Also, don't forget to check out Dr. Jackson's books that are available on Amazon. His third book, Turkey Tales and Bible Truths, and his father's biography on Laughter Silvered Wings. The story of a country doctor, a family man, a patriot, and a political activist. This podcast is produced by Bob Sloan Audio Productions.
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