More Than Medicine
More Than Medicine
MTM - Interview with Dr. Matt Clark
A raw, unfiltered look at South Carolina’s fight over the Unborn Child Protection Act (S.323)—and why many believe the current heartbeat law still leaves thousands of lives at risk. We bring you inside the latest Senate Medical Affairs Subcommittee hearing with Dr. Matt Clark, director of Personhood South Carolina, to break down what the bill actually does, where accountability should fall, and how deterrence, defenses for coercion, and equal protection collide in real-world cases.
You’ll hear how on-the-ground experience shapes this debate, from a sidewalk counselor with thousands of hours outside clinics to legal analysis from seasoned litigators who argue the bill is on firm constitutional ground after Dobbs. We also grapple with an unexpected twist: prominent pro-life groups opposing a measure designed to end abortion, while other advocates offer partial support and push for targeted amendments. The result is an honest conversation about strategy, unity, and whether incremental wins are enough when abortion pills and loopholes are still ending lives across the state.
We map the road ahead—another subcommittee meeting, potential amendments, and the senators who most need to hear from their constituents. If you care about the policy, the people, and the practical steps that move laws, this is your briefing on S.323’s stakes, the key testimonies, and how respectful, persistent advocacy can shape the outcome. Watch the testimonies on the Personhood South Carolina YouTube page, share this episode with a friend who follows state policy closely, and if our work helps you think and act with clarity, subscribe, leave a review, and let your senator know where you stand.
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Welcome to More Than Medicine, where Jesus is more than enough for the ills that plague our culture and our country. Hosted by author and physician Dr. Robert Jackson and his wife Carlotta and Dr. Annabeller. So listen up because the doctor is dead.
Speaker 2:Welcome to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, Dr. Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the Country Doctor's Rusty, Dusty Scrapbook. Well, today I'm privileged once again to have my good friend Dr. Matt Clark online with me. Dr. Clark, welcome to More Than Medicine.
Speaker 3:It's great to be with you again, Robert. It really is.
Speaker 2:Well, Dr. Clark is the director of Personhood, South Carolina. And last week he was down in Columbia at a Senate Medical Affairs Subcommittee hearing about Senate Bill 323, which I call it the Personhood Bill. And Dr. Clark has agreed to come on and give us an update about that Senate Medical Affairs subcommittee hearing, give his impression, and tell us a little bit about that bill and about the folks that testified at that hearing. So, Dr. Clark, I'm I'm grateful that you were there. I'm grateful that you were there to testify. And I I just want you to give my listeners uh a taste of what all went on uh last Wednesday at that hearing. So you take it away.
Speaker 3:For sure. It's really uh it's an exciting time, Robert. You know, right now in South Carolina, we're operating under the heartbeat law, and a lot of folks are willing to just kind of rest there with the heartbeat law, but none of us should be willing to rest there. The statistics came out from 2024, Robert. 3,025 babies uh were legally murdered in our state, according to our numbers. And then numbers from outside the state, Robert, upwards of around 3,900 babies uh estimated were uh killed by their mothers at home with the abortion pill. And so, you know, you bring those two numbers together, and we're you know, well up in the upper 6,000s uh in terms of the number of babies that are being killed in our state legally. Um, and so we we can't rest, and we need to really help people see what's going on and how terrible it is in our state. And so the great thing about this bill, Senate Bill 323, which is titled the Unborn Child Protection Act, is that it would extend protection back to a clinically diagnosable pregnancy. So anytime we know that a child is present inside its mother, it would be against the law for anyone to kill that child. And in addition, there's no exceptions. The current heartbeat bill allows for uh innocent children who came into existence through rape or incest or who are medically limited, it's uh okay to kill those innocent children in the in the heartbeat law. In addition, Robert, this is a big point here in the heartbeat law, two things about justice being lacking, and that is that the abortionist, if they do break the heartbeat law and murder a child, they only get two years or up to $10,000. Um, and Robert, get this. The the mother has unconditional immunity. So, you know, these women that I mentioned before, around I think it's 3,890 of them in our state uh estimate from uh external sources based on these abortion pills being prescribed and mailed into our state. These women, Robert, they could take these pills right now, walk into the attorney general's office and say, hey, look, I'm gonna take these pills and I'm gonna kill my baby. And there's nothing, Robert, that can be done by the heartbeat law. They have unconditional immunity. And so one of the big steps forward in the Unborn Child Protection Act, and I hope your, especially your listeners in South Carolina and also outside of the state will understand that you know, in order to protect these babies, the moms have to know that they could they they could face some sanctions for their behavior. And so that's the big thing about this bill is that it really covers all the bases and really protects the lives and the dignity of every baby that we know is in South Carolina is being threatened. So it's a big step forward. It's a wonderful bill. It's not perfect, it's it's got some points here and there that I think could be could be better. Um, and I do need to say, in terms of the potential uh criminal prosecution, anybody, Robert, who participates in this crime, if if this law passed, passes, uh, would if this bill passes and becomes law, would face potential criminal prosecution. And uh, in terms of the pregnant mother, if she were to cooperate with prosecution, she would have conditional immunity. There's it's uh it's wrong and it's illegal to coerce a woman in this bill. It's spelled out, and also duress is a defense. And so it's just a really common sense um law that takes us uh many, many steps forward. And Robert, the bottom line is, and I hope your listeners would understand this, especially in South Carolina, this bill would end the murder of babies inside their moms in our state. It would it would end it, it would be over, it would be all over. This is a total abortion ban, Robert, in our state.
Speaker 2:And so we've been praying for that and working for that for 40 years in South Carolina.
Speaker 3:We have. We have in terms of the hearing, I hope that your listeners understand what a big step forward this is because we are operating under 40 to 50 years of false teaching from National Right to Life and from South Carolina Citizens for Life, where Robert they claim that the woman is always and only a victim. So they say at the outset, we have to make sure that any law that we would pass would give unconditional immunity to the pregnant mother. And so this is the first time we've actually had an opportunity to talk to people and help people see that this criminalization aspect of the bill is a return to the roots of the laws that we've had in our state since the beginning of our nation and since the time that our constitution came into existence. What we're bringing forth is nothing new. In fact, it's the citizens for life and the national right to life folks that are trying to do something new. And it's illogical and it doesn't really uh comport with sound legal principles, and it's you know, it's dehumanizing to the mom, it's it's uh paternalistic, uh, treats women like they don't have uh any moral agency. So we're really thankful, Robert. And it really came out, it really came out at the hearing. Um, we had um Mark Baumgartner from A Moment of Hope came and he really gave a beautiful, beautiful testimony there as an expert witness. You know, he is the founder and director of A Moment of Hope, and he's a gentleman, tender-hearted uh sidewalk counselor in Columbia outside of Planned Parenthood. And he testified, Robert, coming with over 5,000 hours of experience there on the sidewalk. And he gave testimony, eyewitness testimony, that you know, these women walk in there and they know exactly what they're doing. And he said, Look, I'm in favor of the the need to have criminal sanctions for everybody involved, including the pregnant woman. And so it was a really beautiful thing to see his testimony, his gentlemanliness, his um just his demeanor and his wisdom. It was a great thing.
Speaker 2:I listened to his testimony, Dr. Clark, and I want you to know I I understand fully what he says when he rejects the notion that women are victims. Because as a family doctor, I counseled with literally hundreds of women in 40 years of family medicine who were pregnant and did not approve of the notion that they were pregnant, and I would counsel with them about the options that were available. And many young women emphatically told me that they did not want to be pregnant and they were not going to continue the pregnancy, even though they were fully aware that that which grew in their womb was a human being. And and when I explained to them the con long-term consequences emotionally and physically, they just snubbed their nose at me and told me emphatically that I I intend to kill this unborn child by abortion. They knew exactly what they were doing, and they were not emotionally reluctant to pursue an abortion. And they were not a victim, they were an accomplice to the murder of their unborn child, and they were a willing accomplice. And I understand fully what d Mr. Baumgartner was saying.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And and we have to we have to say it is true that there absolutely have been women who've been coerced, they've understand that. And then held accountable for that. And so the law leaves room for that, and the the courts leave room for that so that we'll be able to protect those types of women who've been so terribly mistreated.
Speaker 2:That's what a jury is for.
Speaker 3:Exactly. That's what the jury is for. That's right. And uh so yeah, it's it's really foolish to just say that uh across the board blanket immunity because there are some women who are um who are truly victims.
Speaker 2:But I'll tell you a secret. I'll tell you a secret. It only takes one doctor and one woman prosecuted in South Carolina, and all abortions will stop.
Speaker 3:Well, it's it's true. I mean, the deterrent aspect is real. Now, Robert, I want you to let this sink in, and I hope your listeners will get this. On the day of the hearing, October 1st, South Carolina Citizens for Life was not present at this hearing for a bill that would end that would end abortion in South Carolina. They weren't present, but they did send out an email to all of their supporters on that day opposing this bill that would end abortion in South Carolina. So that was one of the big things that happened on that day. Now, there had already been a memo that they'd sent out, but this one came out on the day of the hearing saying that they opposed this bill that will end abortion in South Carolina. Can you believe that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do believe that. I've I've heard it from their own mouths.
Speaker 3:I mean, I understand they oppose some of the aspects of the bill, but Robert, this bill would end abortion in South Carolina and they're opposing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's no wonder they didn't come and testify the bill because they would have had to testify with all the hysterical um folks on the left who were clamoring in favor of murdering babies.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So it's it's really shocking. Now I'll tell you on the other side, the good news is Equal Protection South Carolina has come out in what they would say, I guess I think that they would agree with these words, partial support. Yeah. They showed up, they testified, they called their network to be involved. And so, brother, that's a real answer to prayer of what we were hoping to see to bring Christians together. And they came and testified and asked for areas where the bill needs to be improved before they could give their full support. But it's really good to see Christians coming together and working together to get this bill passed. So that was another big development from the day.
Speaker 2:It was a huge plus, a huge bonus uh that they would show up and say this is not a perfect bill and from their perspective, but they they do support the bill. And that was huge.
Speaker 3:It really was. And and again, they said they can't offer their full support until there's some amendments, but they were present and they did join with the uh folks who testified in favor of the bill.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, I'll tell you who else was there that was uh as an expert. Uh the equal equal protection folks uh for Equal Protection South Carolina folks were not there as expert witnesses. Uh Mark Baumgartner was. And then another expert witness I want to tell you about is Steve Crampton. Uh he's with the Thomas More Society, and he's senior counsel with them, and they've um litigated um as many pro-life cases as any other uh pro-life litigation organization in the country, if not more. And he came and testified and he just laid out the constitutional foundations for for every aspect of this bill and made it very clear that this bill is on solid legal ground. And I hope that your listeners will go to the Personhood South Carolina YouTube page and they can see all these testimonies for themselves. We've got them there for folks who want to go look at them. Uh Steve Crampton did a great job. And I'll tell you who else was um uh Jeannie Scott Smith, uh, who um founded along with her husband, I think it's called um Coastline Women's Center, just a wonderful testimony that she gave of God's grace and her life and the work that they're doing down there and their support for this bill. And I'll tell you another thing that's important about their support uh for this bill uh is that the same day that this hearing occurred, the Association of Care Pregnancy Centers in South Carolina also came out in opposition to the bill. A bill that would end abortion in South Carolina. The care pregnancy centers came out in opposition to. But Jeannie Smith used to be the president of the Association of Care Pregnancy Centers in South Carolina, and so it was really good to help the state see, hey, you know what? This whole network that's out there that's opposing ending abortion is is coming down. It's crackling, it's crumbling. Yeah, and I I you know I I really hope that Citizens for Life and other organizations will see the error of opposing a bill that would end abortion.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I just I hope they'll see that and join us to to make this make this evil in our state finally go away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right. It's time for them to open their eyes to repent and turn away, and to be supportive of a bill that's gonna close the door on abortion clinics in South Carolina. We've prayed for this for 40 years, and it's time for all pro-life organizations to join ranks, to pull together, to pray together, and to ask our legislators to finally, finally close the doors on all the abortion clinics in this state.
Speaker 3:That's what we're after.
Speaker 2:That's what we're after. Exactly. We've been praying for this for 40 years, brother Matt.
Speaker 3:Tell you. Well, there was there wasn't a vote uh on the first. Um there was uh discussion amongst uh the members of the committee, and the decision was made to um have another subcommittee meeting at some point in the future. And I don't know, we don't know, we don't have a date yet. We're hoping that'll be before Thanksgiving. And uh let's see what else. Oh, yeah. There were two Republican senators that weren't present, um, Senator Shane Martin and Senator Tom Corbyn were not present for the subcommittee meeting. And so looking to the future, I think a really good thing for us to do is just to reach out to all the subcommittee members, um, the especially the GOP subcommittee members, encourage them, let them know you're praying for them, and and ask them to make sure that this bill passes out of subcommittee without any unfriendly amendments.
Speaker 2:Gotcha.
Speaker 3:No, no unfriendly amendments. And so, you know, that's gonna be Richard Cash, Senator Cash, it's gonna be Senator Garrett, it's gonna be Senator Corbyn and Senator Fernandez and Senator Zell and Senator Martin and Shane Martin.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll put all those names on my on as a link on my uh website when when we're done, I'll put all that together for my listeners.
Speaker 3:Yep, and I think it'd be really helpful for them to hear from your listeners, those who are in South Carolina, and especially if you are a constituent of any of those senators, to reach out to them and encourage them to pass the Unborn Child Protection Out uh uh Act out of a subcommittee with no unfriendly amendments.
Speaker 2:We can do that, and always tell these guys you're praying for them. They like to know that you're praying for them and that you stand behind them and um just be as supportive as you can in your correspondence.
Speaker 3:Loving, uh with courtesy, um, letting them know what you would uh want them to do and why. Let them know that you don't want to see any more of our innocent neighbors murdered inside the wood.
Speaker 2:That's right. All right, our time's about up. You got any final comments?
Speaker 3:Well, I would just say, like you said, be praying, be praying a lot, contacting your senators, share this information with your friends and your networks, and we could, you know, use donations. Every penny that we receive is going towards the effort to completely end abortion in our state.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, how do folks make a contribution to Personhood South Carolina?
Speaker 3:They can go to our website, personhotpersonhood.sc or they can go to our Facebook page, Personhood South Carolina, and they'll find the donation. They can do a one-time donation or they can do a monthly sign-up and give each month. And right now, every dollar is doubled, so we've got a doubling matching campaign going right now.
Speaker 2:Good, good. All right, and you said that these testimonies um from last Wednesday are on your website right now.
Speaker 3:Well, they're at our personhood, our YouTube, um, our YouTube page, which is the Personhood South Carolina YouTube page.
Speaker 2:Gotcha. Gotcha. All right, well, that's good. Well, you've been listening to More Than Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Matt Clark, who's the uh uh uh allergist from down in uh North Augusta, South Carolina, and he's the director of Personhood South Carolina. It's always good to have him as a guest. He's a fountain of information, and I want to thank you, my good friend and my good brother, for being there and standing in the gap for us last Wednesday. And as things go forward and as we have additional uh developments down in Columbia, I'll probably have to have you back again to give us an update. Would that be okay?
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, absolutely. Just really appreciate your ministry and uh and uh appreciate your listeners uh giving attention and getting involved.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, thank you, sir. All right, that concludes our program today. You're listening to More Than Medicine. This is Dr. Robert Jackson. Remember, uh your doctor loves you. And until next week, may the Lord bless you real good.
Speaker:Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine. For more information about the Doctor Family Ministry or the schedule of speaking and business, go to the Facebook page, Instagram, or website at Doctor Family Ministry dot com. Don't forget to check out Dr. Doctor.
