More Than Medicine
More Than Medicine
Interview with Joe Wolverton - Unraveling Federal Overreach and Constitutional Boundaries
Discover the profound insights of Joe Wolverton, a distinguished author and constitutional law scholar, as he unravels the intricacies of the U.S. Constitution and its enduring relevance. Journey with us through Joe's unique background, from his roots as the first in his family to attend college to his defining career as a constitutional attorney. Joe shares his deep understanding of the First and Fourth Amendments and his transition to a full-time writer for The New American magazine. This episode highlights his extensive work, including his captivating biography of James Madison and "The Founder's Recipe," which emphasizes the faith and education of the founding fathers. Unearth the essence of his latest book, "What Degree of Madness: Madison's Method to Make America States Again," which focuses on state sovereignty and the Article V Constitutional Convention.
Take a deep dive into the pressing issue of federal overreach, as we explore the metaphor of kudzu—a creeping vine—as a representation of the federal government's invasive influence on state affairs and individual lives. Reflect on the wisdom of James Madison in Federalist No. 46 and his collaboration with Jefferson in the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions, underscoring the necessity of states' rights to counteract unconstitutional federal actions. We emphasize the urgent need for boldness among state legislators to uphold sovereignty and act against federal tyranny. Engage with thought-provoking discussions on nullification as a necessary move to eliminate tyranny, contrasted with secession as a more severe recourse. This episode promises to challenge and inspire listeners to consider how we can protect our constitutional boundaries and freedoms.
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Welcome to More Than Medicine, where Jesus is more than enough for the ills that plague our culture and our country. Hosted by author and physician, dr Robert Jackson, and his wife Carlotta and daughter Hannah Miller. So listen up, because the doctor is in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, Dr Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the country doctor's rusty, dusty scrapbook. Well, I'm delighted and privileged today to have as my guest Joe Wolverton, and Joe has just written a book that I've heard about, hadn't read it yet, got it on order, but it's not come to my house yet. And so, Joe, I'm going to ask you to tell my listeners a little bit about yourself, and then we'll kind of jump in and talk a little bit about the book that you've written. So if you would take a few moments and tell my listeners who you are, where you come from, and just about yourself and your family, Sure.
Speaker 3:I'm proud to and happy to be on your show, sir. It's quite an honor. Well, let's see, I'm Joe Wolverton. As you said, I am from Memphis, tennessee. I am the first person on either side of my family to go to college. How about?
Speaker 2:that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, both I'm the first person on either side of my family for go to college. How about that? Yeah, uh, both I'm the first. I'm the first person on either side of my family for about three, four generations that wasn't born a sharecropper. And the reason I wasn't born a sharecropper is because my because of vietnam. My dad, uh, went at 19 years old, left the cotton field and went to. Uh went out to the killing fields of Vietnam and when he came home he decided he liked the army better than the cotton field and he re-enlisted after Vietnam and as a result of that I was raised overseas most of my life. My dad's job required him to live in Western Europe, and so I grew up traveling around Western Europe pretty much my whole life. My dad's job required him to live in Western Europe, and so I grew up traveling around Western Europe pretty much my whole life. How about that? But my family has lived here in West Tennessee gosh for about 220 years now, and so roots go deep here.
Speaker 3:I myself went on to go to law school and wanted to be a constitutional attorney and ended up doing just that, mostly dealing with First Amendment and Fourth Amendment, search and seizure cases.
Speaker 3:I worked in Tennessee, here in my home state of Tennessee, and then federal cases regarding the First and Fourth Amendments the First and Fourth Amendments, but since about I guess it's been about 20 years ago I was invited to write an article a one-off article for the New American magazine and that turned into a career. And then about a year ago I was asked by the then CEO of the John Birch Society to join the John Birch Society staff full-time as its inaugural constitutional law scholar. How about that? Yeah, very proud, very humbled to do that. And then, just a few weeks ago, I was asked to take over the social media and publishing arms of the John Birch Society. So now I'm getting involved in that and in between all of that I've written four books A biography of James Madison, and I've got a new biography of James Madison coming out right after first of the year, and I've written the book you're talking about Now.
Speaker 2:was that because you were all wrong on the first one or you had to do a second?
Speaker 3:No, I'll tell you and your listeners would appreciate why I had to write another one, the first one the publisher didn't want me to include so much talking about James Madison's piety, his faith, his Christian faith the publisher thought that could be left out. So it was. But then in this new biography I have several chapters highlighting Mr Madison's faith and his testimony of Christ. You have to get a new publisher.
Speaker 3:Yes, sir, we're publishing this through Western Islands. I got you, I got you. And then I have the book the Founder's Recipe, where I took the 37 men most often quoted by the founding fathers, took selections from those writers and put them together in a book and discussing the education of the founding fathers, what their education was like, the education of the founding fathers, what their education was like, and reacquainting Americans with these names, that, frankly, I do this challenge. I used to have my own podcast and I'd do this challenge where I'd have people go to their local university and see how many of the names on that list that professors of American history could identify, and it was woeful 10 at the most. And you know, these are guys that without whose influence we wouldn't have our founding fathers wouldn't have had their appreciation of liberty. I see, and again, what was the?
Speaker 3:title of that book, the Founder's Recipe. Ah, I got you. The subtitle is how to Make a Madison.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh, I see, I see I have to get a hold of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a good one. I'm working on the second edition of that one right now too. I guess, Because that one sold really well. And then my most recent book is Article 5 for the Citizen and Citizen Legislator, explaining the dangers of an Article V Constitutional Convention.
Speaker 2:I got you. I got you. Well, I got to get all of your books, my friend, I tell you, you just didn't know all of this. Well, now let's go ahead and talk about the book that you wrote entitled. This is the title for my listeners. Now, this is the title for my listeners. Now, what Degree of Madness Madison's Method to Make America States? Again, did I say it right? That's right, exactly right, all right, now, where did that title come from? Help my listeners out.
Speaker 3:Sure, well, it came from. You know, I was giving speeches and everything about nullification, about state sovereignty and decentralization and all of this, and people used to always say, well, you should write a book about this, you should explain it in a book and the title. And so I did that and the title comes from something James Madison said in Federalist no 46. So basically this book, my book what Degree of Madness? Is explaining James Madison's method that he proposes in Federalist no 46 for the states to force the federal government back inside its constitutional cage should the federal government ever become tyrannical.
Speaker 3:Now the exact phrase what degree of madness is today we would say how crazy would you be that in the 18th yeah, in the 18th century, james Madison, what degree of madness? And basically what he was saying is, first of all, he said Americans are far too virtuous and love liberty far too much to ever allow the federal government to become tyrannical. And he said in Federalist 46, but let's pretend. He says that Americans have become that crazy, that crazy. And then he says I'm going to tell you how to force the federal government back inside its constitutional boundaries and how the states are the ones who are supposed to do that and how they do it specifically. And so, yeah, what degree of madness is taken right from Federalist 46? And it's just a way of saying how crazy do you have to be to let your federal government become tyrannical?
Speaker 2:Well, I was going to ask you what to be to let your federal government become tyrannical. Well, I was going to ask you what prompted you to write the book, but you answered the question for me. So it was your, the people who listened to your presentations and speeches, that said to you over and over you need to write a book about this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and it never really occurred to me I'd written a book, you know, the first Madison biography, the Real James Madison. I wrote. I'd written that book but never really thought to write, you know, to write a book about this stuff. But it became the most popular thing I was asked to speak about and so I thought, well, and then I got a publisher. I just sent a sort of inquiries out to different publishers and had a few publishers wanting to publish it. So I'm like, well, you know what, let me go ahead and finish it. And and I wrote it pretty quickly because it's something I've talked about a lot and, uh, I bet yeah, it came natural, those things.
Speaker 2:What's that?
Speaker 3:it came natural yeah, it just came natural and it's one of those things that it offers solutions where you know, a lot of books will tell you what's wrong. Well, any one of us can see what's wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me ask you this Do you think Madison ever envisioned a situation like we have in America today?
Speaker 3:Oh no, sir, he, you know, that's, if anything, mr Madison's fatal flaw was he believed all of us were as virtuous as he was, and that's our flaw is that we aren't. And he, you know, he, along with all the other founding fathers and the people that inspired them, you know, taught that there is no liberty without virtue. Mm-hmm, that's right. Taught that there is no liberty without virtue. And so if you don't have virtue, even if you have liberty, eventually you will slide back down into depravity and slavery. Unless you have liberty, unless you have virtue, excuse me and eternal vigilance.
Speaker 2:Right exactly, do you understand the term creepinism, the term, what Creepingism? Oh, yes, sir, yes, yes, and he spoke about that a lot. Yeah yeah, you know it's like kudzu. Y'all have kudzu in Tennessee.
Speaker 1:Right, yes, sir.
Speaker 2:We have too much kudzu. Yeah, you know, kudzu just creeps up in your backyard and if you're not eternally vigilant about fighting it off, it'll take over your yard. And you know, the federal intrusion in our lives is like kudzu it just creeps up and constantly wants to take over everything in your life. And you know, if we're not eternally vigilant and virtuous, it takes over our states and our individual lives and we become lazy. That's the problem.
Speaker 3:We become lazy, right? You know the founding fathers talk about that a lot. In fact, in that book that I mentioned, the Founder's Recipe that I wrote, I included lots of the quotations from these men that the founders quoted all the time, quotations from these men that the founders quoted all the time. And one of the things they say you know you become, when, when, when, young men in your society become concerned, more concerned about what they wear and their hair and uh, sounding, sounding cool, and they will become effeminate.
Speaker 3:Yes, and when they become effeminate, then you've lost your liberty.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:And so we see that in ourselves, we've become addicted to luxury, addicted to ease, yes, and that has caused us to become more effeminate and that has eroded our personal and our cultural virtue.
Speaker 2:That's right. All right, let me ask you the next question what was the rightful remedy? I saw that phrase in one of the articles. What was the rightful remedy that James Madison proposed in Federalist no 46?
Speaker 3:number 46? Well, the rightful remedy is the phrase that Jefferson he and Jefferson collaborated on a couple of foundational documents called the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions, and if any of your listeners want to get, today, a 15-minute lesson on the Constitution that is something better than anything else they could possibly find they should Google the Kentucky and Virginia resolutions and read those. And that's a phrase wherein Jefferson said that if the federal government ever exceeds its constitutional authority, then the rightful remedy to that disease of despotism is for the states to refuse to cooperate with any unconstitutional act of the federal government.
Speaker 2:I got you. I got you. Now. Do the states, as sovereign entities, have a duty to reject federal overreach in order to protect the liberty of the states and individual citizens?
Speaker 3:Well, that's what Madison ultimately, his method for making America states again, is for the states to assert their sovereignty as independent republics. If you go to Federalist 39, he makes it very clear. He said this Constitution is not creating one nation. He said this Constitution is creating a confederation of 13 independent, sovereign republics who act according to their own will, who act according to their own will. And that's what we're supposed to have. We're supposed to have state governments that stand as a barricade between attempted acts of tyranny on the part of the federal government and the people of the states. That's the role Madison uses. He says that the states are, that they have the duty, they are duty, the obligation and are duty bound to arrest the progress of the evil of federal tyranny. And that's the word he uses. He calls federal tyranny evil and says the states are duty bound to stop it.
Speaker 2:That's right, but doesn't that require a certain amount of boldness and resolve on the part of the states and the state legislators, the state governors? That I don't see really anywhere amongst our state governors and legislators.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I completely agree with that and we do have a dearth of of uh resolve and fortitude among our state legislators. But I will say, the hope for this country as you know, the united states the hope is that people can still have influence over their state governments. You know my, my state senator and my state uh representative. They have jobs in town. We have a part-time legislature in Tennessee and these guys have jobs, you know, and therefore you can have influence on your state government. And really, if you think about it, that's the way we're supposed to do it. The state governments are supposed to be superior. We've been taught for so long that they're inferior, but according to the men who created the Constitution and according to the men who voted to ratify it in the 13 states, the state governments are supposed to be superior to the feds and the federal government is only supposed to be able to exercise a very limited number of well-defined powers.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, what's the consequence? What's the consequence of the failure to nullify unjust laws?
Speaker 3:Well, I think the ultimate consequence is the dissolution of the union. That's what Madison predicts. Ultimately, he says, if the states do not nullify unconstitutional acts of the federal government, eventually it will cause such a situation that the only way that any state desiring to retain the liberty of its citizens would be to separate itself from the all-powerful, despotic central government. Despotic central government. And so nullification and I write this explicitly in the book nullification is an act of fidelity to the union. Right, because you're saying, this constitution created the union. This constitution is sacred to us, and the way you enforce it and the way you reinforce it is by forcing all the parties to that contract to adhere to the terms of the contract, because eventually, if we don't, you'll see states breaking away and they will.
Speaker 3:It's like I tell people, and I think I said it in the book, it's like we have the tumor of tyranny developed in our body politic, and you, as a doctor, of course, you'd know this. You know you can either use a scalpel and cut out the cancerous, you know lump, or you could use a chainsaw and chop off the limb, or you could use a chainsaw and chop off the limb, and nullification is the scalpel and secession is the chainsaw. That's right. So anybody who's had a tumor will tell you please just cut away the bad tissue and leave the good, and that's what nullification does. Nullification enforces the Constitution, reinforces the boundaries of federal authority and maintains adherence and fidelity to the Union and all those things are good things.
Speaker 2:That's an excellent illustration. I appreciate that. I'm going to remember that one Well as a doctor. I hope so yeah yeah, I will remember that. That makes great sense to me. Well, let me ask you this what are some examples of states nullifying federal overreach?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, we have. No matter what you think about this first one, I mean we have, gosh, 30 states that have nullified federal regulations against the use of marijuana. I mean, I just drove through some states on a trip up north and, gosh, they have billboards saying next exit, buy your marijuana and recreational use is allowed, and you could. There are some states that had billboards that said, hey, here's the number to have weed delivered to your house, and all of this. Now, I'm not a fan of smoking marijuana, but it is an example of states actively nullifying federal usurpation.
Speaker 3:And you have, my wife is originally from Idaho, although she now identifies as a Tennessean, but she's originally from Idaho. We went to visit her family over last Christmas. I could go down to the grocery store and buy raw milk and just like you would buy any other milk. And that is also a refusal by the sovereign state of Idaho to enforce federal regulation against the sale of raw milk. And you have several states have refused to enforce federal regulations against the size of magazines that can be used in weapons and things like that. So there are innumerable examples, and those are just a few.
Speaker 3:But marijuana, raw milk, guns, you have states that are creating gold and silver depositories so that they can nullify the Federal Reserve and so states. This is the thing people don't understand is nullification is not a theory that might or might not work. Nullification is a fact and it's working right now and working. And Idaho hasn't left the union, Colorado hasn't left the union and openly nullify unconstitutional regulations passed by the feds. And so you can see in practice, not in theory, in practice that nullification does work, both to reinforce boundaries on federal authority and to keep the union together.
Speaker 2:Well now I'm very interested in your book and I think my listeners would be interested in your book. Tell us again the title of your book and how can my listeners get a hold of your book.
Speaker 3:Okay, the title of the book is what Degree of Madness and the subtitle is Madison's Method to Make America states again. And you can get that at shop, like you know, shopjbsorg, shopjbsorg, and just look for my name, joe Wolverton. Or you can go on Amazon. And if you go on Amazon and look for my name, joe Wolverton, it'll have both that book as well as my Founder's Recipe book, as well as my book on Article 5. So, yeah, either shop JBSorg or Amazon. What degree of madness. And, yeah, I wish. I'm grateful for you, doctor, for having me on, because the more people that hear about this, the more likely we are to be able to make America's states again, to reassert the sovereignty of our states and to force that federal beast back inside its constitutional cage.
Speaker 2:I hear that and see for my listeners. Reading a book like this is a primer to help them talk to their legislators and the governor about having a backbone and so they know how to nullify federal overreach, I mean. I tried to talk to a legislator a year and a half ago about nullifying federal overreach about a certain matter, and all he could do was talk about the Civil War and how the federal government was going to bring tanks into our next state.
Speaker 2:And I had to laugh at him, but he was serious about it, he just did not understand. And so it's important for us to educate our legislators about this issue.
Speaker 3:I will say something, dr, since you brought that up. Yeah, the book is very helpful in that way, but also the John Birch Society. When they hired me full-time they wanted to make one of their action items. Their missions to be Make America Great Again. I created Make America States Again and they created an action item videos and audio recordings and lessons on how to approach your state legislator, on ways things to say, points to make in talking to them, and even sample legislation that you can copy and paste to suggest to your local legislator, how ways that he can help you to uh to nullify unconstitutional acts of the federal government. So jbsorg slash states and uh. Yeah, they'll find so many uh tips and uh and resources there to help them do that hey, that's great and I'm glad you told me that.
Speaker 2:Now can I get one of those red hats it says Make America.
Speaker 3:States. Again, if you give me your address, I'll get you one.
Speaker 2:I'd love to have one of those hats they're great.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:All right, you're listening to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, dr Robert Jackson. My guest today is Joe Wolverton. He works with the John Birch Society and he's written an amazing book that I want to encourage you to get a hold of. What Degree of Madness Madison's Method to Make America States Again? And I encourage you to get your own copy of it. I think you'll thoroughly enjoy it. Joe, I want to thank you for being my guest on More Than Medicine. We'll be back again next week and may the Lord bless you real good.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine. For more information about the Jackson Family Ministry, dr Jackson's books, or to schedule a speaking engagement, go to their Facebook page, instagram or their webpage at jacksonfamilyministrycom. This podcast is produced by Bob Sloan Audio Production at bobsloancom.
