More Than Medicine
More Than Medicine
Unveiling The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate - Interview with Matthew Trewhella
From gang life in Detroit to a dedicated pastor and influential author, Matthew Trewhella's journey is nothing short of miraculous. In this episode, we uncover Matthew's transformation through Teen Challenge, igniting a lifelong passion for faith and justice. Now, after 37 years as a pastor, Matthew discusses his seminal work, "The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate," which has captivated readers worldwide with its compelling argument for moral courage against tyranny. Matthew's story and his advocacy for anti-abortion efforts serve as powerful testaments to his enduring commitment to righteousness.
We also explore the bold concept of interposition, showcasing its biblical and historical roots. Learn about the Hebrew midwives, the Magdeburg Confession of 1550, and the modern-day applications of this doctrine, such as local defiance of state orders during the COVID-19 crisis. Tune in to hear thought-provoking discussions on the responsibility of lesser authorities and the relevance of Romans 13 in today's world, enriched with practical examples like Madison County, Illinois. This episode is a profound look at the importance of moral courage and the duty of leaders to stand against unjust higher authorities.
https://defytyrants.com/store/?model_number=566271439
https://defytyrants.com/
http://howjesuschangedmylife.com/
https://www.jacksonfamilyministry.com
https://bobslone.com/home/podcast-production/
Welcome to More Than Medicine, where Jesus is more than enough for the ills that plague our culture and our country. Hosted by author and physician, dr Robert Jackson, and his wife Carlotta and daughter Hannah Miller. So listen up, because the doctor is in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, dr Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the country doctors Rusty dusty scrapbook. Well, I'm delighted this week to have in my studio Matthew Truella. And, matthew, I'm delighted to have you in the studio with me today. And first I'm going to ask you if you would just tell my listeners a little bit about who you are, where you come from, and tell us a little bit about the book that you've written Okay, sounds great.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I'm from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I grew up in Detroit, Michigan. I have a wife named Clara. Me and her have been married 43 years. We have 11 children 11 children.
Speaker 2:Don't you know where children come from? Right, yeah, years, we have 11 children. 11 children. Don't you know where children come?
Speaker 3:right, yeah, we have we have six daughters, five sons and we have 35 grandchildren now amazing and we have our first great-grandchild was born about two months ago, so god has blessed us mightily well, you know, I'm jealous because I only have 18.
Speaker 2:Oh, is that all yeah?
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I was raised in Detroit where I grew up. I was minority. There was a lot of gang activity and so I got involved in a gang and I used to steal cars and rob people and burn down houses and fight other gangs and I was tried as an adult at age 17 and there in Detroit and I was sentenced by the courts. The first year I had to spend in a drug rehab program and I was put into a drug rehab program called Teen Challenge.
Speaker 2:I know that program yeah.
Speaker 3:Dave Wilkerson the Cross and the Switchblade. I remember that.
Speaker 2:I read that book when I was 17.
Speaker 3:Did you?
Speaker 2:really. My daddy gave me that book when I was 17 years old. I read it this summer before I went in my senior year of high school. Praise God, how about that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, amen, yep. So I went in there and I was sick of my life and I knew there had to be more to life than what I saw with my eyes. And we went to church on Sunday and when I was there they were worshiping God and I really felt like I was going to start weeping. So I sat down in the pew and for the first time in my life I really felt bad about all the bad things I had been doing in my life and it was the Holy Spirit showing me I was a sinner in need of a Savior convicting me of my sin. And I sat in that church, dr Jackson, and wept for an hour and a half.
Speaker 2:Oh my.
Speaker 3:And he just radically transformed my life and I've been living for him ever since. So I got this website howjesuschangedmylifecom.
Speaker 3:You would have thought somebody already had that one, but I did that about six years ago. I wrote out my testimony and it's about 24 pages long and there's a radio dramatization from Unshackled and so they did radio presentation on my conversion and I have a short sermon that I preached regarding my mom. She was the first to come to Christ in our family and, of course, our lives just radically transformed through Christ, as each one of us Now you've been a pastor. I've been pastoring now for 37 years.
Speaker 2:How about that yeah?
Speaker 3:Mercy Seat Christian Church up in the Milwaukee, Wisconsin area. I've been involved in the efforts for the pre-born for decades now. I did about 15 months in jail during a four-year period back in the early 90s for interposing peacefully, nonviolently, at the doors of the death camps in order to keep the children from being butchered. It's been a great life, and so it's been a great life.
Speaker 2:I fully identify with that and I appreciate that mission work at the abortion mills. I do appreciate that, amen. Well, now you've got a book that I'm holding in my hand. It's called the Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate A Proper Resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of unlimited obedience to civil government, and I've read it, read it twice now, and it's a fascinating book, and so I want to ask you some questions about the book, and so can you give us a brief definition of the doctrine of the lesser magistrate and some historical examples of what this whole concept means?
Speaker 3:Sure, Well, the book has done really good. It's sold over 150,000 copies now and it's been translated into six different languages. And the doctrine is very simple. The definition is that when the higher ranking civil authority makes unjust or immoral law policy or court opinion, the God-given right and duty of the lesser ranking civil authority is to say no and, if necessary, to actively resist the superior authority.
Speaker 3:I use a quote from Emperor Trajan which succincts the doctrine. He was giving a sword to one of his subordinates and he said to him use this sword against my enemies if I give righteous commands, but if I give unrighteous commands, use it against me. So that's the doctrine in a nutshell. When the superior ranking civil authority acts lawlessly, brings about immorality, injustice, the duty of the lower ranking civil authority is not blithe compliance. Rather, their duty is what we refer to as interposition. This doctrine is thoroughly found in the word of God. John Knox in his 1558 appellation to the nobles of scotland the nobles were the lesser magistrates of that day cites over 70 passages of scripture to show that the doctrine is sound in the word of god. Um. So people are interested in this doctrine because they realize our government's lost its mind.
Speaker 2:It has, it's tyrannical.
Speaker 3:Totally. And so when men realize they no longer have the convenience of being indifferent towards the unjust and immoral actions of their government, they want to be sure that the actions that they take to resist are proper and legitimate. And so what they see in the doctrine is that it's found in the Word of God, been practiced for thousands of years, seen in the. So what they see in the doctrine is that it's found in the word of God, been practiced for thousands of years, seen in the Old Testament, seen the New Testament, seen in non-Christian, non-jewish nation, showing it's natural to man, and it often reigns in the tyranny of the superior authority, bloodlessly, not always, but often.
Speaker 2:It's Christian thought, it's God-given well, now give me some of the examples other than what you've just told me yeah, well, in my book I start out with a story about a governor named publius petronius.
Speaker 3:He was the governor of palestine. Caligula is the emperor at the time. Caligula is tyranny personified, although our federal government seems to be giving him a run for his money.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, and so he, caligula, got ticked off at the Jews in 38 AD, didn't like something they did. And to get back at him, he made a law of the emperor which declared that a statue of him should be made and it should be placed in the temple there in Jerusalem. Well, the Jews got word of this. So they went to the governor, the lesser authority, and they said don't do this. This is a great affront to our religion. It's completely immoral. We do not allow it. He said to them, governor Petronius did. He said well, I think I'll obey the emperor because I want to live. Well, these Jewish folk weren't like your average American who wrote their one letter to their congressman and then gave up. They were tenacious. They put together an assembly of noted men to come and remonstrate before him and plead with him not to follow this law of the emperor. And plead with him not to follow this law of the emperor. And then the people gathered publicly, up to 10,000 at a time, and finally they bared their necks before Governor Petronius and said kill us now, because we can't live in peaceful coexistence with this desecration to our temple. Well, about three weeks after that, and Josephus writes about all this. Well, about three weeks after that and josephus writes about all this um, about three weeks after that, um governor petronius and called for the jews to meet with him. They met narina. There was like 10 000 of them that showed up and when they walked in there were 12 000 roman legions there. So they're feeling a little uncomfortable, a little trepidatious, because last time they saw the governor they're like bare their necks and said kill us now.
Speaker 3:So here's the picture right, all the Roman soldiers are on this side of the arena, all the Jews are on the other side of the arena. Governor Petronius is up in front of them. He unrolls the scroll, reads the law of the emperor, which disobedience to it was death, and to demonstrate his inner position, he rolls up the scroll. He walks down and stands between the soldiers and the Jews and says I will not obey the law of the emperor and I will use all my authority to convince him to rescind this law. So he sends word by ship to Emperor Caligula, pleading with him to just rescind the law and not do this.
Speaker 3:Well, caligula responds in good tyrant fashion. He's ticked off. He sends word to Governor Petronius by ship to kill himself, which wasn't unheard of in those days and happened with some commonality if you didn't obey. So lo and behold, in God's providence, two weeks later, emperor Caligula is assassinated by his Praetorian guard and, fortunately for Governor Petronius, the ship carrying word for him to kill himself arrived after the ship carrying the news that Caligula had been assassinated, so the statue never was placed in the temple in Jerusalem. It's an awesome story of how the doctrine of the lesser magistrate works in history and understand. The doctrine can need application in any form of government, whether it's a democracy, a monarchy, a dictatorship or a constitutional representative republic like we're living in today.
Speaker 2:All right when I read that word interposition in your book multiple times. So let's talk a little bit more about that word interposition. Explain how that concept works in the political arena.
Speaker 3:Absolutely Well. Interposition is a historic Christian doctrine and it's part and parcel of the doctrine of the lesser magistrate. When we're talking about interposition, we're talking about the fact of someone standing in the gap between the oppressor and his intended victim. You can interpose for someone verbally, or you can interpose for them physically or a combination of both, and there's many examples of it. Ezekiel 22, god appeals to the princes, saying he's looking for a man to stand in the gap. There's evil in the land. He's looking to the princes they're the lesser magistrates. But he said I could not find one. And so he said therefore I'm bringing my judgment upon the land. So understand the inner position of the lesser magistrate is so important. It can actually abate the just judgment of god on a nation very interesting.
Speaker 3:So the inner position you know we have many examples of it. We have the hebrew midwives. They were told to kill the male Hebrew children they interposed on their behalf disobeyed Pharaoh. Another example would be Saul's dopey edict. You know his son starts a fight with the Philistines. Saul joins in, makes his dopey edict Nobody can eat anything. Jonathan doesn't hear about it, eats a little honey. Saul's going to kill his own boy. And what do the scriptures say? Said all israel rose up and said not one hair shall be touched on the head of him. Who brought israel such? The people themselves interposed? Yeah, so when it comes to the doctrine of lesser magistrate, the lesser ranking civil authority actually uses their lawful office to interpose, to stand in the gap to stop the evil of the superior ranking civil authority.
Speaker 2:I understand that that's amazing, and it is a biblical concept, no doubt. Now, what is the duty of the lesser magistrate? And then, the other thing that concerns me is what corrupts lesser magistrates and keeps them from performing their, their, their legal duty sure.
Speaker 3:Well um last year I was asked by the national sheriff's association, at their national convention, to give the sermon at their prayer breakfast, which, of course, I was honored to do. What an honor absolutely, and I preached on the topic of the most sacred duty of a lesser magistrate yeah which, of course, is when evil raises its ugly head through the superior authorities. The duty of the lesser authorities is to interpose, to stop the evil.
Speaker 3:Right and um, they were hanging on every word I bet they were oh they were, because people can see the times we're living in, right now yes, yes and so um. What causes many of the magistrates not to act is because many of them ran for office or obtained their position um through um a desire for their own self-aggrandizement. So they don't want to jeopardize their career, they don't want to jeopardize their quote-unquote good reputation. They'd rather go along and get along than make a stand that's needed and necessary.
Speaker 3:So there's this great lack of courage this great lack of bravery amongst the lesser authorities, but that's why it's extremely important for us to teach them this doctrine and bring Christian thought to them so that they can understand that part of the duty of their office is when evil is done, they should stand against it. I use within the book an example of a police officer in las vegas named check gallagher, and he was um. There was a rescue going on where people were imposing at the death camp and he arrived on his police motorcycle and they were ordering the police to remove the people so the murder could continue. And he said no and he went and sat down with those who were blockading the door and of course he was taken into custody himself and lost his job because of that after 20-plus years of service. But he didn't regret it because he knew the oath that he took to protect life. And it's just an example of the doctrine of lesser magistrate in our day and age.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I understand that. Yep, oh that we had police officers like that in our county.
Speaker 3:Amen.
Speaker 2:Because we begged the policemen to join us when we were being arrested for quote trespassing at an abortion clinic. We were interposing protecting the unborn and we were being arrested for tresp quote trespassing at an abortion clinic. We were interposing protecting the unborn and we were being arrested for trespassing, and we begged the police officers come join us, protect the unborn. They didn't see it that way, correct? Well, tell us about the men of Magdeburg and their confession and why this is so important to us today.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely. The Magdeburg Confession was written in Magdeburg, germany, in 1550 AD by the nine ministers within that city. It was a large imperial city, over 30,000 people, had the thickest, tallest walls of any city in all of Germany at the time. And in 1550, the Emperor, charles V, brought what's known as an interim and he brought all of the Protestant lands under Roman Catholic rule, belief and practice, and they decided to take a stand against it. And they decided to take a stand against it and the book itself, or the confession itself, I should say, was written in Latin. All important theological works were back then and they wrote their confession and they published it throughout Germany in German. And it turned into quite the thing. There was a 13-month siege by the emperor against the city. 468 Magdeburgers were killed, over 4,000 of the emperor's men were killed, but in the end they were able to preserve the Protestant faith. And had it not been for the interposition of that one city, the Protestant Reformation would have been just a blip on the radar screen of human history.
Speaker 3:That's how important their interposition was because all the rest of the Protestant lands went along with the interim. So in my book I have a chapter about Magdeburg, because the Magdeburg confession is the first time that the doctrine of the lesser magistrates was formalized as a doctrine and I can't encourage people to read it strongly enough. We obtained a 1550 original from the.
Speaker 3:Bavarian State Library in Munich, germany. 50 original from the Bavarian State Library in Munich, germany. I hired a guy with a PhD in Latin and Greek from Cornell University impeccable credentials, christian brother. He just took it as a hired gun and two weeks into the translation work he calls me and he goes how is it possible that this document has never been translated into English before this? I go how is it possible? So I wrote a historical prelude and historical postscript. We put in a bunch of footnotes because you don't understand some of the things they're referring to. You don't get the punch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And so now we have this book from antiquity, so to speak, from 500 years ago, the Magdeburg Confession, and then we have my contemporary work on the doctrine, um, to make available to people, Um and yeah, like I said, the my book sold about 150,000 copies and the Magdeburg has sold about 35,000 copies now.
Speaker 2:Well, I need to get a copy of that too. Yeah, I need to read that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's excellent.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. Well, now, now, now. Why is that Magdeburg confessionession and understanding it so important to people like us today?
Speaker 3:Yeah, because the application of the doctrine is so needed in our day right now. By the way, if people go to our website, defytyrantscom, it's amazing. There's a small group of young Lutheran ministers that have really grabbed on to the Magdeburg Confession and have written phenomenally I mean, it makes your heart beat high type of stuff when you read it. Yeah, so about three days ago, that'll be the number one thing up there right now is an article called Magdeburg Application to Today.
Speaker 2:What's the website?
Speaker 3:Defytyrantscom.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Defytyrantscom. But it's so needed because, even like with the COVID thing, of course it's needed for many reasons. But COVID, during COVID we documented over 500 acts of interposition by lesser authorities against the evil either done by their state government evil either done by their state government. These are county sheriffs, county boards, mayors, city councils, town councils standing in interposition against the lawlessness of their state government or the lawlessness of their federal government. A great story I like to use about that is Madison County, illinois. Remember how the governors were making new decrees like every 72 hours.
Speaker 3:They lost their minds. And so Governor Pritzker, who's governor of Illinois, just below where I live in Wisconsin in May of 2020, he came up with his latest decree, and it was this latest decree and it was this no businessmen anywhere in the state of Illinois can open their business now, till I say you can open your business. And then he said if you open your business before I tell you you can, you will now be arrested and charged with a crime. Well, the next day, in a state with 102 counties, only one county gathered their men together and they put out their own decree, and that's madison county. Sits right on the mississippi river, directly across from st louis, and their decree declared our businessmen are free to reopen now and we will use all our power and all our authority to protect our businessmen. And then they warned the governor and the state not to interfere with their businessmen. Well, of course, this caused no small stir.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:The very next day, Governor Pritzker, in good tyrant fashion, held a press conference threatening to take away all their federal money, all their state money. He had a whole list of bad things he was going to do to them if they didn't get with the program.
Speaker 3:In fact he did that for three days in a row. Well, the men in Madison County stood resolute, they didn't waver, they didn't flinch. And then, seven days after Governor Pritzker had made that decree, the Illinois State Police put out a press release stating we will not arrest any businessman anywhere in the state who opens their business before Governor Pritzker says they can. They had decided to stand with the man, and the very next day after that, governor Pritzker rescinded his order, and so understand.
Speaker 3:If it hadn't been for the interposition of that one county, the entire state would have remained under that draconian decree. That's right, and understand this too. The man who heads up that county is a Christian brother. He had read my book two years before that, had taught it to the entire county board, and he knew exactly what their duty was in the face of tyranny.
Speaker 2:That's how important this doctrine is. That just blesses my heart. I can't tell you how much that blesses. That just blesses my heart. I can't tell you how much that blesses. And see, that's the importance of you, brother, speaking and teaching the truth.
Speaker 3:Amen, absolutely, yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:Now here's the first question that people are going to ask. They're going to say well, what about Romans 13?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Doesn't the Bible teach us to be submissive to the governing authorities? Yeah, tell us about that, sure authorities Tell us about that.
Speaker 3:Sure, In my book I have an appendix that I wrote on Romans 13, and we soon realized it can't just be in the book so we put it at our website, so you don't even have to buy the book.
Speaker 3:Just go to our website, defytyrantscom. You can read my appendix on Romans 13. The title of it is Three Convincing Proofs that Romans 13 does not teach unlimited obedience to the civil government. Okay, and the reason we put it there is because then people can share it with their friends, with their family, with their pastor, whoever. It's massively because there's this huge understanding or thinking that Romans 13 teaches unlimited obedience to the civil government. So the first thing I show, the first convincing proof, is nowhere in Romans 13 does it say we're always to obey.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Anywhere. In fact, there isn't a scripture verse in the entire Bible that says we're always to obey Rather, that's what we call an act of eisegesis. Eise is the Greek word for into. It's where you're reading into the text something that is not there, and that's what men have done when you actually exegete. The text ex is out in Greek You're to draw out the original, intended meaning of the text.
Speaker 3:So, secondly, it totally goes against good biblical hermeneutics, which is scripture interprets scripture. Scripture with the big s interprets scripture with the smallest. In other words, when you're looking at a particular text, scripture with a small s, you have to look at it in the light of the whole of God's word. Scripture with a big S, scripture with a big S interpret scripture with a small s. That is the hallmark of good biblical hermeneutics. And when you look at the scriptures, there's all these places where the people of God disobey the civil authorities, and God blesses and commends them for doing so. The Hebrew midwives and commends them for doing so. You know the Hebrew midwives, daniel, the three Hebrew children, the wise men. Even Paul, who penned Romans 13, talks about in 2 Corinthians 11 how he knew the governor wanted to arrest him and instead of submitting to that, he craftily fled in a basket to the side of a wall, and so there is nothing. It totally contradicts sound biblical hermeneutics.
Speaker 3:And then the third thing that I point out in my appendix is the fact that there's limitation clauses within Romans 13. Limitation clauses within Romans 13. And the duty and function of the civil magistrate, according to Romans 13, is to punish those who do evil, reward those who do good. Well, what about when they pervert that role and begin to punish those who do good and reward those who do evil? And that's exactly what's happening in our culture now. If you try to interpose for a pre-born baby about to be murdered, you're going to jail, while the murderer, the abortionist, is going to go home and sip martinis by the fireplace. And so it's extremely important to understand, yeah, the Romans 13, nor the scriptures anywhere. None of them teach this idea that we're always to obey the civil government. None of them teach this idea that we're always to obey the civil government. The hallmark standard has been, dr Jackson, that when the state commands that which God forbids, or forbids that which God commands, we are to obey God rather than man, exactly, and so that's what I teach in Romans 13.
Speaker 2:That's good, that's good, that's good, good, matthew, all right, so here's my last question and we're going to run out of time in just a minute. Sure, so most of my listeners are not elected or appointed to a magistrate's office or an elected position, so how does this doctrine of the lesser magistrate apply to me or to them?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great question, and in my book I go through the various tenets of the doctrine and one of them regards the role of the people. The role of the people is to prod their lesser authorities to do their duty and interpose when the superior authority is acting evilly or lawlessly. And they not only are to prod them to do right, but they are also to assure them that if they do do right, that they will stand with them four square, with their person, with their property, with their prayers, both publicly and privately. That is owed to the lesser authorities. So that is the main role of the people regarding the doctrine of the lesser magistrate.
Speaker 2:And that's very important, because these men who lack courage, they need to know that the voters, the populace, is going to stand with them if they take a courageous stand against the superior magistrate.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 2:And if they don't know that they had the backing of the people, then what good is their courage going to do them?
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 2:They have to have the popular vote. They have to have the popular support.
Speaker 3:Yes and understand how important their position is. The superior tyrant civil authority counts on the blithe compliance of the lesser authorities in order to get their evil down in the fabric of society. And it's when the lesser authorities say no and take that important stand that we, as the people, must prod them to do and assure them we're with them four square. That's when the superior, lawless, tyrant authority knows they got a problem on their hands.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 3:Well, tell my, tell my listeners how they can get a copy of your book and what, where the book can be obtained and how they get to your website yep, well, you can get it at our website, defytyrantscom, and if you order it through there, we add in a few extra items for free, okay, but you of course can get it at Amazon also.
Speaker 2:And the title of the book again is what.
Speaker 3:The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates, and the subtitle is A Proper Response to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government.
Speaker 2:All right, and the book is by Matthew Truella. It's T-R-E-W-H-E-L-L-A, matthew Truella, and he's my guest today. Matthew, I'm just delighted to have you here in the studio with me and I hope maybe I can have you back. Maybe we can talk about another topic another day.
Speaker 3:That sounds great. It was a blessing and an honor to be with you, brother, so thank you so much.
Speaker 2:I appreciate you traveling all the way from Wisconsin to be here with me. All right, well, you're listening to More Than Medicine. My guest today is Matthew Truella, and we'll be back again next week, and until then, may the Lord bless you real good.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine. For more information about the Jackson Family Ministry, dr Jackson's books, or to schedule a speaking engagement, go to their Facebook page, instagram or their webpage at jacksonfamilyministrycom. This podcast is produced by Bob Sloan Audio Production at bobsloancom.
