Can pastors remain silent in the political arena without compromising their moral duty? Join us for a riveting conversation with Hannah Miller from The Hannah Miller Show Podcast as she confronts her father, Dr. Robert Jackson, on the historical and contemporary dynamics of pastors and politics. We unpack the historical roots of pietistic thinking that have led many pastors to "stay in their lane," and how this has paved the way for secular dominance in society. Dr. Jackson passionately argues that Christians should actively be the "salt and light" in various fields, including politics, medicine, law, and the arts, to uphold moral integrity. Hannah and Dr. Jackson delve into the critical role of pastors as shepherds guiding their congregations to engage responsibly and proactively in cultural issues.
We also explore the controversial Johnson Amendment and its implications on pastors' free speech, scrutinizing how religious leaders can navigate political discourse without legal repercussions. Drawing on scriptural examples like John the Baptist, we discuss the universal application of God's standards and the necessity for Christians to call for repentance and uphold biblical values in any governmental framework. To wrap up, we get personal with insights from the Jackson Family Ministry, highlighting their faith-driven mission and community engagement efforts. This episode promises to inspire proactive Christian involvement in societal matters while offering a heartfelt glimpse into the values that drive the Jackson family.
Can pastors remain silent in the political arena without compromising their moral duty? Join us for a riveting conversation with Hannah Miller from The Hannah Miller Show Podcast as she confronts her father, Dr. Robert Jackson, on the historical and contemporary dynamics of pastors and politics. We unpack the historical roots of pietistic thinking that have led many pastors to "stay in their lane," and how this has paved the way for secular dominance in society. Dr. Jackson passionately argues that Christians should actively be the "salt and light" in various fields, including politics, medicine, law, and the arts, to uphold moral integrity. Hannah and Dr. Jackson delve into the critical role of pastors as shepherds guiding their congregations to engage responsibly and proactively in cultural issues.
We also explore the controversial Johnson Amendment and its implications on pastors' free speech, scrutinizing how religious leaders can navigate political discourse without legal repercussions. Drawing on scriptural examples like John the Baptist, we discuss the universal application of God's standards and the necessity for Christians to call for repentance and uphold biblical values in any governmental framework. To wrap up, we get personal with insights from the Jackson Family Ministry, highlighting their faith-driven mission and community engagement efforts. This episode promises to inspire proactive Christian involvement in societal matters while offering a heartfelt glimpse into the values that drive the Jackson family.
Welcome to More Than Medicine, where Jesus is more than enough for the ills that plague our culture and our country. Hosted by author and physician, dr Robert Jackson, and his wife Carlotta and daughter Hannah Miller. So listen up, because the doctor is in.
Speaker 2:
Welcome to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, Dr Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the country doctor's rusty, dusty scrapbook. Well, I'm delighted today to have as my guest my very own daughter, Hannah Miller. Well, Ms Hannah, welcome to More Than Medicine.
Speaker 3:
Thanks for having me, Dad, and I've got some questions for you.
Speaker 2:
Medicine. Thanks for having me, dad and I've got some questions for you. Well, we've got a lot of questions today and this has been a very interesting week, and we're going to dive into those questions right away.
Speaker 3:
Well, I'm going to put Dad in the hot seat this week a little bit because of something that I saw on social media. I have a pastor that I follow that I have a lot of appreciation for and after the assassination or attempted assassination, I'm sorry of Donald Trump, which, like I said, I know that there's a lot of questions and people are probably expecting me to come out with this podcast and be going to town on all of the things uh, the holes, I guess, that are. In that event, we're going to save that for a later day, because I wanted to do this interview and talk to you, dad, about these things, because it has a lot to do with what happened and why it happened and we'll get to all that. But this pastor posted on social media and I have a lot of respect for him and he said all of the things that pastors and Christians are saying and were immediately saying on social media, which was, you know, we need to be praying for the Trump family, we need to be praying for the gentleman and his family who lost his life. He was a hero and he was a hero. And then, you know, but it all started.
Speaker 3:
That post started with this pastor saying these words. I know I usually stay in my lane, but and then he goes on to say we should be praying for, and he addresses a political event and I'm putting air quotes really around political event. And it really bothered me that here he was. This is a pastor that he addresses all kinds of things, but the only thing he was going to say about what had happened, this attempted assassination, was you know, let's pray for everybody and that's exactly right, that's the first thing that we should do, but that pastors and Christians too often stop there. Because why what he said? They don't want to get out of their lane, they want to stay in their lane. And so I want to talk about this and I'm going to ask you some hard questions, and the first one, right off the bat, is why do pastors think that way? Why do pastors, when it comes to political issues particularly, say I need to stay in my lane and I can't address these political issues?
Speaker 2:
Well, here's the short answer, because we got a lot to talk about and our program can't go on all day.
Speaker 2:
But it's a consequence of pietistic thinking and it grew out of the Lutheran thinking in Germany way, way back when, and the the Lutherans were pietist and their thinking was that anything that had to do with the world was contaminated and corrupted and it was not holy, and so they stuck with reading the bible, praying, going to church, but they didn't want any involvement with the culture around them. They didn't want any involvement with the world around them because any involvement in the world would corrupt or contaminate them individually and their church collectively. Now that kind of thinking was called pietistic and their conviction was that involvement in politics would corrupt them, involvement in politics would corrupt them, and so they stayed away from any involvement in politics. Well, that thinking left Germany when the Lutherans moved to America in the 1700s, late 1700s, and so there was a huge shift in the church in America. Those Christians who started America, the Puritans who came to America, did not think that way and in fact those who framed our Constitution did not think that way. They were heavily involved in politics.
Speaker 3:
Now, I don't want to get ahead of you, but I thought the Constitution said separation of church and state.
Speaker 2:
Well, save that thought.
Speaker 3:
All right, all right, we'll come back to that.
Speaker 2:
We'll come back to that. But that pietistic thinking still affects the church today and there are many pastors and many Christians who think that being involved in politics corrupts them individually and corrupts the church collectively. But I have you know that I do not think that way. I don't think churches and individual Christians and pastors in particular should think that way. We are to be salt and light in the culture. Our culture in America has become corrupt because Christians collectively, and pastors in particular, have left the playing field.
Speaker 3:
They've stayed in their lane.
Speaker 2:
You're right, exactly, we have tried to stay in our lane, your lane. You're right, exactly, we have tried to stay in our lane.
Speaker 2:
The salt has stayed in the salt shaker and we have left the playing field to the pagans. We have left the political playing field, the medical playing field, the legal playing field, the academics, the arts. We have left every single arena to the pagans and our culture is going to hell in a handbasket because Christians have failed to be salt and light. The moral fabric of our nation is corrupt and polluted in every arena because Christian folks have segregated themselves to the four walls of a church salt shaker.
Speaker 3:
And you know, I knew you were the right guy to interview on this because, for one, you're knowledgeable, but two, you'd be very passionate about it, and you know it bothers me. And I'm going to talk specifically and I think we should be to the pastors out there who would happen to be listening to this podcast, because, look, the, you're the shepherd of your sheep, that's right and they're gonna do they do what you do, what the shepherd, the sheep follow.
Speaker 2:
That's right, the shepherd. And if the shepherd is a pietist and he stays in his lane and he won't be involved speaking out against the moral corruption in this world, then the sheep will do exactly what the shepherd does they'll be afraid too, because that's why they're, that's why they won't speak on it, because they're afraid.
Speaker 3:
That's right well and and I, and I don't think that all pastors are fearful, they just think that's their place yeah, you're right, you, you know there's, I think there is a fear where a lot of them won't do it because they're afraid of what their fallout's going to be. People are going to leave my church if I speak out against abortion, or you know any kind of these topics Well you're right, fear is a factor. But there are men who they just don't think that that's their lane, that's right.
Speaker 3:
And that's where it comes to this again, and I don't know if you're ready to talk about it again this concept of, or a confusion regarding, the separation of church and state.
Speaker 2:
Well, let's talk about that. That phrase separation of church and state is not in the Constitution. You know that, I know that, but lots of our listeners do not know that that is not a constitutional phrase of our listeners do not know that that is not a constitutional phrase.
Speaker 2:
Thomas Jefferson coined that phrase in a letter in one of the Federalist letters he coined that phrase, and so it's a commonly used phrase separation of church and state. But it's not in the Constitution. And it's wise to separate the powers, but there's nothing in the Constitution that says that the church cannot be involved and that individual Christians cannot be involved in the affairs the political affairs of our nation. And in fact, it is incumbent upon us as Christians that we should speak truth to power, and especially pastors should speak truth to power. We have a responsibility, otherwise the church loses its prophetic voice. We have a God-ordained responsibility. Now listen, hitler told Martin Niemöller many, many years ago that Hitler would take care of the church. And Niemöller looked at him and said we as pastors have a God-ordained responsibility to take care of the church and you cannot take away from us that responsibility. You nor anyone else can take away from us that responsibility. And Hitler turned his back on Martin Niemöller and walked away from him. He had no response to that. And you see, it is the responsibility of the pastors to speak truth to power. Two days later no, no, I'm sorry that very night a Gestapo came and ransacked Niemöller's house and two days later a bomb exploded in his home. That was Hitler's response to Niemöller speaking truth to power. But you see, that's still his responsibility and he could not be afraid to do that.
Speaker 2:
Now, are pastors afraid to speak the truth about abortion in their congregations? Sure they are. They don't want half of their congregation to walk out. Are they afraid to speak the truth about LGBTQ? Dot dot dot. Sure they are, because they don't want some of their folks to walk out and be offended. But they have a God-ordained responsibility to speak the truth of God's Word about these moral issues, but not just inside the four walls of the church. We as Christians, and they as pastors, have a responsibility to speak that truth in the halls of power and in the state legislature and in the community as well. God gave all of us that responsibility, and especially the pastors.
Speaker 3:
I want to keep going on that train of thought there, but before we do so let's clarify here the Constitution of the United States says nothing about separation of church and state. That was coined by Thomas Jefferson in the Federalist Letters, the First Amendment. It prevents the government from making laws respecting an establishment of religion. So that means the United States government cannot decide hey, everybody in the United States is going to be Southern Baptist. That's what it means. That's basically what it says Essentially, that's very much simplifying things, but it's freedom of religion.
Speaker 2:
You guys were free to worship, but not freedom from religion.
Speaker 3:
That's right, but not freedom from religion. And so, pastors and Christians, you have to get this right, because it has been pounded into Christians. Separation of church and state it's the law separation of church and state. And we have a total confusion over that, and pastors are paralyzed because they misunderstand what that actually means. Separation of church and state that means the state has no responsibility over the church. That's what that means. That's not that the church has no responsibility about what happens with the state. It's we flipped it on its head yeah, but what?
Speaker 2:
what is paralyzing pastors nowadays is the johnson amendment yes, in 1954, lyndon johnson put into the tax code an amendment that says that any organization, church or otherwise it's a 501c3, cannot be involved in political activities without being subject to losing their tax-exempt status. Now that's patently unconstitutional and there are a lot of organizations that have voiced their concerns about the Johnson Amendment. But it muzzles the free speech of pastors as individuals and churches as organizations, and it's patently unconstally. Donald Trump signed an executive order wanting to eliminate the Johnson Amendment and Alliance Defending Freedom has tried to have churches to defy that amendment so that they could go to the Supreme Court to have it overturned.
Speaker 3:
And it's specifically about a 501c3 endorsing or opposing political candidates. It's not that they can't be involved and speak their mind and do those. It's a pastor cannot get up on a Sunday morning in front of his congregation and say we, as such and such Baptist church, endorse Donald Trump or Joe Biden. That's pretty much the limitation of it. But it doesn't mean that you cannot get up as a pastor into the pulpit and say the Democrat Party, this is their platform and it is unbiblical because of X, y, z or the RNC just changed their party platform and it is unbiblical because of X, y, z.
Speaker 3:
You can do all of those things as a pastor within the four walls of your church, but especially, as you just said, outside of the walls of your four church and in the public square. And so here we have and this is where I want to make sure we say this we've just talked about the fact that there's no limitation to you as a pastor or as a Christian legally here in the United States. There's nothing that's binding you from addressing political or cultural issues within the law, except for in that one way that you cannot endorse a candidate as a pastor or a church unless you're going to risk your tax-exempt status. Other than that, you're pretty much free. So there's nothing binding you legally in America.
Speaker 3:
What about scripturally? Let's talk about it from that perspective, because we're Christians, ultimately it doesn't really matter what the law says. I mean because the law, just because it's legal in America, doesn't mean it's right. Slavery was legal didn't make it right. Abortion was legal doesn't make it right. That's not our standard. So let's go to the Bible. And how does the Bible say that we, as Christians, should conduct ourselves in the public sphere? Should we be pietous and say you know what those things are unholy and it will make us unholy if we're involved with it.
Speaker 3:
Obviously, you've kind of teased that that's not what you think. That's right?
Speaker 2:
Well, think about John the Baptist.
Speaker 3:
Oh, yay, yay. What about John the Baptist? This is one I say all the time Yay, let's talk about it.
Speaker 2:
I mean, if John the Baptist was a pietist and he was unwilling to speak truth to power, he would have never lost his head, that's exactly right.
Speaker 3:
I say that all the time. I say you know what if? If christians are not supposed, because this this is what pastors and a lot of christians say is that, well, they're pagan and we cannot hold them to the same standards and the standards of the Bible because they're pagan and I'm like. Well, if that somebody should have told John the Baptist that that's right. Because he held a pagan king to the standards of the God of the Bible. That's right, and he lost his head for it.
Speaker 2:
There's a theological term for that. It's called poppycock. That's not right. You see, god's standards apply to everyone equally. That's right, whether they're lost or saved, whether they're pagan or Christian.
Speaker 1:
God's standards.
Speaker 2:
That's right. God's standards apply to everyone equally, and you and I can stand up in church or on the street corner or on the street corner or in the halls of Congress, and we can call everyone to repent from adultery, from pornography, from child sex trafficking. It doesn't matter what kind of corruption that people are involved in. We, as God-fearing, right-thinking Christian people, can call people to repentance, to turn their back on sin and turn to God, and it doesn't matter if they're pagan or Christian or Jewish or Buddhist or whatever they are.
Speaker 3:
They must repent because one day they're going to stand before God and give account and not only do we call them to repentance, we can still say whether they're repentant or not. We can still demand that they abide by the law of God and that they abide by the values and the principles written within the Bible, the word of God. And we say well, you know what, just because you aren't a Christian doesn't mean that you can go out and murder somebody. And that is really what a lot of these pastors and Christians that's the working out of how they think. Well, they're a pagan. We shouldn't be surprised that pagans are going to do what pagans do. And I'm like well then, why do we have any laws whatsoever? That's right, listen you. Well then, why do we have any laws?
Speaker 2:
whatsoever. That's right. I just are we just going to listen? You look at the laws of the land and you will perceive who is the true God of that land. The law and authority, the authority in any land will point you to who is the true God of that land. In Hitler's Germany, hitler said what the law was and because of that, hitler was the true God in Germany. In America, the rule of law is our constitution. Our constitution is founded on nature's God, the true God, the creator God, and in America, the true God is the true God of the heavens and the earth, because our laws are founded upon biblical law. You see, so when you look at the law of our land, it points to the true God in America, which is the creator God. You see that, you understand that, and so any pastor, any Christian, can call anyone to account by pointing to the law of our land, which points to the true God in America, which is the creator.
Speaker 3:
God, because of our history and who our founding fathers were and what they believed. That's right and which was. I mean they did build our constitution around the law of God and there's no way to get away from that. There's a lot of people who try to attack that, but all of their arguments are weak and faulty. So how should we? You know we're saying, okay, you should, so you should engage, you should be a John the Baptist of your culture, of your age, in your political sphere, in your town, so you should.
Speaker 3:
Now the question is, how should we and that's you know, specifically pastors how should they actually conduct themselves in this world and in politics? And I think some of the things we've already talked about you know, unwavering. One of the things I say a lot of times in my on my podcast, is that we, you need to know the constitution and, more importantly, you need to know the word of God, and then you need to be uncompromising in your standing by both of those and be unwavering in, in, in standing by them. And I think that that's you know a lot of Christians get caught up in. You know the 11th commandment. What's the 11th commandment? According to Votie Bauckham, always be kind.
Speaker 3:
That's right, nice. You know and we do, and you know it always comes down to you know, speaking the truth in love. That's right, that's it and that you can speak the truth, and sometimes you can be real strong in how you speak the truth too. You don't have to be a weak, mamsy-pamsy Christian when you speak the truth. You can speak it strongly, and you know what it might step on somebody's toes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're being unkind, and this is where it comes in.
Speaker 2:
It's so important. Listen, hitler said that those Christians were as submissive as dogs and he said they will do whatever I tell them to do. And you know why? It's because they were always kind, they were always loving, but they never spoke the truth to Hitler, except for a few, except for a few. And you see, there's a balance. You have to speak the truth, that's right. But you have to speak the truth in love. But if you love people without telling the truth, you're a compromiser. But if you speak the truth without being loving, then you come across as condemning, yeah, brash, judgmental. And you know, only Jesus did that perfectly. You know, for us it's always a struggle.
Speaker 3:
And that's why I was. You know. The next words out of my mouth were that's why it's paramount for you and I to be in close relationship with the Lord and allow Holy Spirit control over our lives, because he can do the best job, guiding us in when and how to speak truth and love.
Speaker 2:
And it can't be any hypocrisy in our lives. We have to be consistent, spirit-filled Christians. If we're going to try to speak truth to power and if we're going to try to speak truth and love, we have to be consistent, spirit-filled Christians, Because one of the reasons that people don't speak out is because they know in their heart of hearts that they're inconsistent. And you know, I'm not going to stand up and roar like a lion and try to speak truth if I know that I've got skeletons in my closet.
Speaker 3:
Or on the public square when you know at home your kids and your wife know that you're a man from Pansy.
Speaker 2:
That's right, and so my challenge to all of us is don't be a hypocrite. Live your life consistently as a spirit-filled believer. Don't be afraid to speak the truth, always be kind, always be spirit-filled, always be kind, always be spirit-filled, always be loving. But at the same time, we have to make a commitment that we're not going to be submissive, as little dogs like Hitler accused the Christians in Germany of being. We have to screw our courage to the sticking place and be prepared to bear the price. You know, the cross always has a consequence. There's always a price to following Christ. We have to take up our cross and follow him daily, and sometimes there's a price to be paid for speaking truth to power. Many of the Christians in Germany paid a price. Some of them went to concentration camps. Dietrich Bonhoeffer he died in a camp. And so, as we go along as Christians in America, we're not becoming a more Christian nation, we're becoming a more pagan nation.
Speaker 2:
And there may be a day when pastors and outspoken Christians outspokenly conservative like yourself, young lady there may be a price for speaking out.
Speaker 3:
Now, it's just that you're unpopular. One day it may be that you become a prisoner, that's right.
Speaker 1:
Exactly right.
Speaker 3:
And we have a history in the United States and I know we're running out of time, but we have a history in the United States of the Black Robe Regiment and if you're unfamiliar with that, listeners, you need to Google that term and then go find you a book. And I forget the author. It's the Black Robe Regiment and is the title of the book. It's by Dan Fisher.
Speaker 3:
Ah, by Dan Fisher, and you need to read that book because it talks about the pastors, the black.
Speaker 3:
You know, they wore their black robes in the colonies and they would, you know, preach their sermon and then he died, and I forget who, who was the name of the lead pastor who did that.
Speaker 3:
I forget his name, but anyway, he got down off of the pulpit from preaching his sermon, took off his black robe and underneath was a, one of the outfits for the, an abrasive pistols, and abrasive pistols to, and he marched out and he went to serve in the colonial army and to fight the british for freedom in the revolutionary war and he led the way as the shepherd to his sheep. And you know what a I mean, that is just a. So I mean most pastors of today would absolutely stiff arm that kind of, you know, just recoil away from that kind of action and are unwilling to take off their pastoral garb and take up arms. And it doesn't look the same as it did. Then you know, we're not telling you to go out and grab your pistols and start shooting people oh, my goodness, no, but we are asking you to lead your people in the charge in the culture war and to be unafraid and be unafraid of what everyone else is going to say.
Speaker 3:
To be unafraid and be unafraid of what everyone else is going to say, and so you know. The last thing I would say is to answer the question that we asked in the beginning what is the fallout of pastors who stay in their lane? Well, the fallout is parishioners who stay in their lane. And what happens when you have parishioners who stay in their lane?
Speaker 3:
Well, the family stays in lane with the father, and then culture, which is downstream of the family will stay, you know, and it's just, all of a sudden, as you said, the salt has stayed in the salt shaker and it's not doing its job and the light has been put under a bushel. And what's the? How's that song go? You know? Hide my light under a bushel? Oh, no, and, and that is so. That's an admonition for all of us and pastors, and that's why, specifically and I am addressing and we are addressing pastors specifically you have got to lead the way as the shepherd for your sheep Fathers. You have to lead the way for the little sheep in your flock at home and show them how to speak truth in love. And you only can do that, and you can only be unwavering when you are in the word. That's the way to do it. And it's such a simplistic answer, I know, but oftentimes the simple answer is the truth and is the best answer.
Speaker 2:
Well, that's the end of our program today. You're listening to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, Dr Robert Jackson. My guest today has been Hannah Miller, my lovely and highly intelligent daughter. We'll be back again next week, and may the Lord bless you real good.
Speaker 1:
Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine. For more information about the Jackson Family Ministry, dr Jackson's books, or to schedule a speaking engagement, go to their Facebook page, instagram or their webpage at jacksonfamilyministrycom. This podcast is produced by Bob Sloan Audio Production at bobsloancom.
